Black Lives Matter Everywhere: Its Time To Defund The US Military

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Above photo: Washington DC protester faces off with a National Guard troop near the White House. .Credit by Erin Schaff for The New York Times.

The case for Black Lives Matter should be applied globally and the push to defund police should be extended to the US military.

On June 1, President Trump threatened to deploy active-duty U.S. military forces against peaceful Black Lives Matter protesters in cities across America. Trump and state governors eventually deployed at least 17,000 National Guard troops across the country. In the nation’s capital, Trump deployed nine Blackhawk assault helicopters, thousands of National Guard troops from six states, and at least 1,600 Military Police and active-duty combat troops from the 82nd Airborne Division, with written orders to pack bayonets.

After a week of conflicting orders during which Trump demanded 10,000 troops in the capital, the active-duty troops were finally ordered back to their bases in North Carolina and New York on June 5th, as the peaceful nature of the protests made the use of military force very obviously redundant, dangerous and irresponsible. But Americans were left shell-shocked by the heavily armed troops, the tear gas, the rubber bullets and the tanks that turned U.S. streets into war zones. They were also shocked to realize how easy it was for President Trump, single-handedly, to muster such a chilling array of force.

But we shouldn’t be surprised. We have allowed our corrupt ruling class to build the most destructive war machine in history and to place it in the hands of an erratic and unpredictable president. As protests against police brutality flooded our nation’s streets, Trump felt emboldened to turn this war machine against us—and may well be willing to do it again if there is a contested election in November.

Americans are getting a small taste of the fire and fury that the U.S. military and its allies inflict on people overseas on a regular basis from Iraq and Afghanistan to Yemen and Palestine, and the intimidation felt by the people of Iran, Venezuela, North Korea and other countries that have long lived under U.S. threats to bomb, attack or invade them.

For African-Americans, the latest round of fury unleashed by the police and military is only an escalation of the low-grade war that America’s rulers have waged against them for centuries. From the horrors of slavery to post-Civil War convict leasing to the apartheid Jim Crow system to today’s mass criminalization, mass incarceration and militarized policing, America has always treated African-Americans as a permanent underclass to be exploited and “kept in their place” with as much force and brutality as that takes.

Today, Black Americans are at least four times as likely to be shot by police as white Americans and six times as likely to be thrown in prison. Black drivers are three times more likely to be searched and twice as likely to be arrested during traffic stops, even though police have better luck finding contraband in white people’s cars. All of this adds up to a racist policing and prison system, with African-American men as its prime targets, even as U.S. police forces are increasingly militarized and armed by the Pentagon.

Racist persecution does not end when African-Americans walk out of the prison gate. In 2010, a third of African-American men had a felony conviction on their record, closing doors to jobs, housing, student aid, safety net programs like SNAP and cash assistance, and in some states the right to vote. From the first “stop and frisk” or traffic stop, African-American men face a system designed to entrap them in permanent second-class citizenship and poverty.

Just as the people of Iran, North Korea, and Venezuela suffer from poverty, hunger, preventable disease, and death as the intended results of brutal U.S. economic sanctions, systemic racism has similar effects in the U.S., keeping African-Americans in exceptional poverty, with double the infant mortality rate of whites and schools that are as segregated and unequal as when segregation was legal. These underlying disparities in health and living standards appear to be the main reason why African-Americans are dying from Covid-19 at more than double the rate of White Americans.

Liberating a neocolonial world

While the U.S. war on the black population at home is now exposed for all of America–and the world–to see, the victims of U.S. wars abroad continue to be hidden. Trump has escalated the horrific wars he inherited from Obama, dropping more bombs and missiles in 3 years than either Bush II or Obama did in their first terms.

But Americans don’t see the terrifying fireballs of the bombs. They don’t see the dead and maimed bodies and rubble the bombs leave in their wake. American public discourse about war has revolved almost entirely around the experiences and sacrifices of U.S. troops, who are, after all, our family members and neighbors. Like the double standard between white and black lives in the U.S., there is a similar double standard between the lives of U.S. troops and the millions of casualties and ruined lives on the other side of the conflicts the U.S. armed forces and U.S. weapons unleash on other countries.

When retired generals speak out against Trump’s desire to deploy active-duty troops on America’s streets, we should understand that they are defending precisely this double standard. Despite draining the U.S. Treasury to wreak horrific violence against people in other countries, while failing to “win” wars even on its own confusing terms, the U.S. military has maintained a surprisingly good reputation with the U.S. public. This has largely exempted the armed forces from growing public disgust with the systemic corruption of other American institutions.

Generals Mattis and Allen, who came out against Trump’s deployment of U.S. troops against peaceful protesters, understand very well that the fastest way to squander the military’s “Teflon” public reputation would be to deploy it more widely and openly against Americans within the United States.

Just as we are exposing the rot in U.S. police forces and calling for defunding the police, so we must expose the rot in U.S. foreign policy and call for defunding the Pentagon. U.S. wars on people in other countries are driven by the same racism and ruling class economic interests as the war against African-Americans in our cities. For too long, we have let cynical politicians and business leaders divide and rule us, funding police and the Pentagon over real human needs, pitting us against each other at home and leading us off to wars against our neighbors abroad.

The double standard that sanctifies the lives of U.S. troops over those of the people whose countries they bomb and invade is as cynical and deadly as the one that values white lives over black ones in America. As we chant “Black Lives Matter,” we should include the lives of black and brown people dying every day from U.S. sanctions in Venezuela, the lives of black and brown people being blown up by U.S. bombs in Yemen and Afghanistan, the lives of people of color in Palestine who are tear-gassed, beaten and shot with Israeli weapons funded by U.S-taxpayers. We must be ready to show solidarity with people defending themselves against U.S.-sponsored violence whether in Minneapolis, New York and Los Angeles, or Afghanistan, Gaza and Iran.

This past week, our friends around the world have given us a magnificent example of what this kind of international solidarity looks like. From London, Copenhagen and Berlin to New Zealand, Canada and Nigeria, people have poured into the streets to show solidarity with African-Americans. They understand that the U.S. lies at the heart of a racist political and economic international order that still dominates the world 60 years after the formal end of Western colonialism. They understand that our struggle is their struggle, and we should understand that their future is also our future.

So as others stand with us, we must also stand with them. Together we must seize this moment to move from incremental reform to real systemic change, not just within the U.S. but throughout the racist, neocolonial world that is policed by the U.S. military.

Medea Benjamin is cofounder of CODEPINK for Peace, and author of several books, including Inside Iran: The Real History and Politics of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Nicolas J. S. Davies is an independent journalist, a researcher with CODEPINK and the author of Blood On Our Hands: the American Invasion and Destruction of Iraq.

  • The violence we export abroad, inevitably finds its way back home. From ancient Athens to modern America. We are but shadows and dust.

  • SteelPirate

    The friends of peace in bourgeois circles believe that world peace and disarmament can be realised within the frame-work of the present social order, whereas we, who base ourselves on the materialistic conception of history and on scientific socialism, are convinced that militarism can only be abolished from the world with the destruction of the capitalist class state.

    Militarism in both its forms — as war and as armed peace — is a legitimate child, a logical result of capitalism, which can only be overcome with the destruction of capitalism, and that hence whoever honestly desires world peace and liberation from the tremendous burden of armaments must also desire Socialism. Only in this way can real Social Democratic enlightenment and recruiting be carried on in connection with the armaments debate.

    –Rosa Luxemberg

  • Jeff

    Capitalism is a cancer and must be abolished, but requirements for eliminating the military go way beyond that. A Bush I undersecretary explained after Bush was out of office that they ignored the massive protests when they attacked Iraq because they saw Americans buying SUVs and driving a lot, and they knew that what Americans cared more about was cheap gasoline. So if you’re truly anti-war, you don’t own a car and don’t drive regularly or at all, because most of these wars in the past 80 years or so are oil wars. Even more fundamental is that civilization requires making war on other people for resources, because by definition “civilized” societies (i.e., urban areas) are overpopulated by definition and cannot exist on their own resources alone.

    Capitalism is a mere symptom of problems, it’s nowhere near being a root cause of any of the big ones. Humans went off the rails thousands of years ago when they started agriculture and its resulting overpopulation, and getting rid of one of the symptoms won’t do much except buy a little time, just like the Green New Deal fraud. If you don’t fix the roots of the problems you don’t fix the problems, simple as that.

  • Jeff

    I fully agree and Medea Benjamin is a true hero for her anti-war work. However, about 80% of Americans consider the military the most trusted and respected U.S. institution, and we are very far from being evolved enough to abolish the military. We really need to work on people’s attitudes before we could ever hope to achieve anything like that.

  • JohnDoe00

    But, but, BUT… Can’t we just drown the baby while retaining all the fermented broth and morsels comprising its soupy bath?

  • SCM

    As if we practice capitalism. Socialism for the rich is not capitalism almost every bank should have failed in 2008 and almost every corporation in 2020 but they were not allowed to they now have unlimited QE and congress just gave them 4 Trillion as well.. Actually the so called socialist European countries practice more capitalism than we do. Sometimes I wonder if we could ever be so free to let them fail.

    What we practice is inverted totalitarianism. Look it up.

  • SCM

    Tribute to Wall Street is how we are not a third world nation yet. We make nothing people want but weapons system and that’s all we need to make. We dispossess most of the world of land resources and labor with those weapons systems and force them to use our funny money. You take that away we are in for a world of hurt.

  • mwildfire

    Yes, yes, yes, YES! This is the connection that must be made loud and clear. We have no money for people’s needs because so much of taxpayer money is dumped without accountability into the Pentagon, which commits more fraud and waste than any other institution–so its sterling reputation mystifies me. And the billions it wastes are the good part, compared to what goes to the intended purpose.

  • pajarito

    Racism feeds the greed of ruling elites and corporations as they extract from and plunder Mother Earth. Destruction of land, water and air IS racist and big oil, big ag, and big pharma exploit people of color in the most vicious and violent ways. The GOP will use any military/police violence to get at Venezuela’s oil and Bolivia’s “lito” and keep the current US government So boycott them, refuse to cooperate, stop shopping and strike!

  • John Chadwick

    I suggest it’s a ripe time to branch out beyond usa borders and start CUBAN LIVES MATTER ; HONDURAN LIVES MATTER ; PALESTINIAN LIVES MATTER ; VENEZUELAN LIVES MATTER… perhaps the defunding of military around the world can become a reality?

  • Who D. Who

    Right effing on! Great piece from Nicolas Davies and the always excellent Medea Benjamin. Here is the crux:

    “Just as we are exposing the rot in U.S. police forces and calling for defunding the police, so we must expose the rot in U.S. foreign policy and call for defunding the Pentagon. U.S. wars on people in other countries are driven by the same racism and ruling class economic interests as the war against African-Americans in our cities.”

    That is exactly correct. When Bush Jr. attacked Iraq in 2003, brilliant Indian author Arundati Roy rightly called it a ‘racist war.’ All wars to maintain and perpetuate American-led Western finance capitalism are racist wars. This is precisely what both parties in government, as well as the media, are trying to distract us from. And this article cuts right through the crap and gets straight to the heart of the matter.

  • Nylene13

    You are not wrong. But practically speaking, it would be hard to ride my horse to the nearest grocery store. Much as I would love to.

    But if we had only small towns, and organic community worker owned food co/ops-now you are talking!

    The question is-how do we get there from here?

  • Nylene13

    Corporations running amok is not Socialism.

    Cuba is a good example of Socialism.

    Free medical for all, Free college, No Illiteracy (The Each one Teach one program solved that problem-each Cuban citizen who could read taught one who could not)
    Cuba’s main export is Doctors-who they send all over the world to help people-
    Of course Cuba is not Perfect-but for a tiny little poor country they have done Great things.
    We could learn a lot from Cuba.

  • chetdude

    “Americans consider the military the most trusted and respected U.S. institution”

    A very low bar indeed…

  • chetdude

    I see the first, best step at the Federal level removing all subsidies and tax breaks for the polluting industries (and Big Ag), corporations and the war machine and replacing them with major tax penalties for polluting along with massive support for Worker Co-Ops, Regenerative Family Farms and to build alternative methods for moving people and goods and providing services.

    That means demanding and getting 269 votes in Congress from people who pretend they care about us when they’re running for office plus one signature in the WH.

    It should be even easier at the local level.

  • chetdude

    “Moral hazard” is a counter-factual right-wing meme designed to defend greed and to divide people from one another to block re-building Communities…

    But it is true that if the Community continues to internalize the wrong goals (unlimited population and industrial “Growth” powered by fossil-fuels and massive fossil-fueled “farming” for instance), Community Ownership of the Means of Production won’t solve our problems.

    We need to change the basic paradigm away from domination hierarchies back to our evolutionary default and support systems of mutual support.

  • chetdude

    The main thing I learned from visits to Cuba was the deep commitment to Community that I experienced even among folks who weren’t fond of the government or system, the Castros or tourism.

    They have a level of “We’re all in this together!”, the collective desire to be of service to others to a degree that I’ve never felt here in USAmerica. It informs everything they do and feel there.

  • Nylene13

    I envy you.

  • chetdude

    Cuba sure did an AMAZING job dealing with Covid-19 because of their basic emphasis on Community.

    You are close enough to visit, aren’t you?

    I’m afraid I’m now at least 3 very long and grueling airplane rides away…

  • Nylene13

    I am afraid that if I went I would never want to come home.

    I read that Cuba had found a Cure for the C Virus and Trump refused to look into it.

    Are you aware of the fight going on right now regarding your post on the PR Article-JOE BIDEN IS A RACIST WHO LOVES POLICE BRUTALITY. ?
    You should check it out.

  • Nylene13

    Well, if I move back to your island, maybe we can do something about it….sounds like the locals are really starting to organize.

  • SteelPirate

    Yeah…we’ve been down this road before. As I told you. Leftist politics is about power and resources and who controls what and why. It’s not about lifestyle choices or any of the overpopulation nonsense that is your foundational ideology. Like I said before……there is no lack of resources and there is no scarcity. The narrative that resources are limited and scarcity is real is a narrative set forth by the capitalists and the owners to pit people against each other and to continue class stratification.

    Like I also told you before…blaming overpopulation and not confronting the question of private ownership of the commons, the land, and the commodification for profit of nearly every resource and human need is reactionary. The fact that the overpopulation crowd continues to use memes like “too many humans” instead of exposing capitalism for what it is says it all about whose side the depopulation crowd is on and it’s not the side of the struggling workers and poverty stricken.

    The rise of class society and private ownership of the means of life brings about wars. The remedy for that is not depopulating the planet and going back to hunter-gatherer social relations. The remedy for that is ending class distinctions and private ownership of the means of life. That means ending its latest incarnation that is capitalism.

  • SCM

    Sure the right wing uses that term to deny basics of life like housing and health care and want you “over the barrel” and virtual slaves to their corporations can’t even leave without losing your families health care.. I don’t agree with that usage not that redistribution is socialism which they also say. There is nothing about free market capitalism that says you can not tax and spend on the people. Adam Smith the godfather of capitalism in fact was a proponent of progressive taxation. “The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.” (Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations)

    As we found out in mid century capitalism (where spectators went to jail and not bailed out like today) this paradigm of high progressive taxation (as high as 93% under Eisenhower) and massive public investment gave us the largest middle class the world has ever known ( in US and EU) Meanwhile the socialist models failed to do the same for their peoples.

    There is nothing wrong with capitalism it’s that we don’t practice it anymore.

  • Jeff

    The necessary changes will probably take thousands of years, many hundreds at least. It’s not about you riding your horse to the store, it’s about people in the distant future living as hunter-gatherers in much smaller numbers and focusing on expanding their consciousness instead of obsessing on the material world. I don’t expect the vast majority of people to be martyrs or even heroes, because they’re not. I just expect them to make an effort and do SOMETHING.

  • Jeff

    Both major systemic/societal changes and major personal lifestyle changes are needed. This can’t be fixed with political solutions alone.

  • Jeff

    My focus is not economics, far from it. You totally missed my point, which was that economics are not a root cause of anything. The physical roots of all of these problems are overpopulation and individual overconsumption, with the underlying root being human bad attitudes toward life and the natural world. Economics is nothing but a symptom of a symptom of a symptom, and I can’t repeat that enough to explain how far from the root of the problem it is.

  • Nylene13

    I am not interested in promoting hunting.

    Humans should not be eating meat.

  • Jeff

    You know nothing about the natural environment and every comment you made in relation to it is wrong. I’m not going to debate you, you’re as much the enemy as any right winger. I’m on the side of the Earth and everything that lives here, you’re on the side of destructive humans. I don’t care about left v. right anywhere near as much as I care about humans v. the natural environment and all that lives there. To everything not human, there’s no difference between an anti-environmental leftist like you and an anti-environmental right winger.

  • Jeff

    That’s ridiculous Nylene. Humans evolved eating meat and have eaten it their entire existence. Even before that, other hominds ate meat. Humans are not natural vegetarians, we’re omnivores.

    Furthermore, there’s nothing wrong with eating meat; we live on a planet where the plants & animals eat each other. That’s perfectly natural and crated a perfect ecological balance until humans messed it up, first causing extinctions by overhunting when they moved out of Africa, then by using agriculture.

    As to the aversion to eating animals: Guess what? Plants don’t want to be eaten either. Just because plants don’t relate to life like we do doesn’t mean that we should discriminate against them by only eating them, as a Yaqui/Apache friend taught me.

  • Nylene13

    We evolved from Apes, Apes do not eat meat, or very rarely, it is not a part of their natural diet.

    We humans have the very long intestines of vegetarian animals. Many humans around the world do not eat meat, ever. The countries with the highest rates of bowel cancer are the countries that eat the most meat.

    Some plants want their fruit to be eaten, Apples for example, want birds to eat them, that is how they spread their seeds.

    Males seem to be especially fond of eating meat, Females not so much.

    Females, being the human race type (males are mutants-all early fetuses are female-until some mutate into males) makes me wonder what that is about.

  • Nylene13

    Not eating meat is doing something.

    Not voting for Biden or Trump is doing something.

    Organizing is doing something.

    “Don’t waste time mourning-Organize”
    Joe Hill

  • SteelPirate

    You’ve already debated this with several people and you got your ass handed to you. One thing is clear. The anti-human ideology you put forth is reactionary and a scourge on the human condition. What’s even more pathetic is that you imagine yourself separated and above it all. As if you stand outside of it like some god passing judgement on the human condition. Humans are not separate from the natural environment you reactionary jackoff. Like any other species, the human objective is first and foremost survival you moron. That survival trajectory takes many roads you jackoff. It’s called historical materialism and its path is not etched in stone.

    Nature is man’s inorganic body — that is to say, nature insofar as it is not the human body. Man lives from nature — i.e., nature is his body — and he must maintain a continuing dialogue with it is he is not to die. To say that man’s physical and mental life is linked to nature simply means that nature is linked to itself, for man is a part of nature.

    –Karl Marx

  • Jeff

    1. Humans are not apes, so what apes do is irrelevant. Humans need meat occasionally for vitamin B-12, simple as that if you want to look at it scientifically.

    2.Your long intestine statement is correct. That’s a medical reason why humans should only eat meat occasionally, not daily like meat-eaters do. Modern humans are fanatic on this issue. Either they’re fanatically anti-meat, or they fanatically eat meat every day. Once/week to once/month would be proper and sufficient.

    3. Fruit does not provide much if any protein, nor does it provide vitamin B-12. So this is irrelevant, fruit is not a substitute for meat.

    4. The fact that you think and/or feel that the way that gender is created is by mutation means you need to take a hard look at your attitude toward life. Males are not mutations, we’re a natural half of the species, as with most if not all mammals.

    5. Plenty of my female friends are fanatic meat-eaters, this has nothing to do with gender. If you’ve got evidence to the contrary, let’s see it.

  • Jeff

    No, I won every debate because no one was able to even address the issues I raised. Like all anti-environmentalists, you worship yourself and your own species while destroying everything else. The human race fits the medical definition of being a cancerous tumor on the Earth, and that’s a FACT, not merely my opinion. It doesn’t have to be that way, and the best humans — unfortunately, a tiny percentage of humans, such as some of the aboriginal groups in Australia and the more advanced spiritual (not religious) people — shows that. But anyone who obsesses on how humans treat each other and basically ignores the natural world except maybe mitigating their harms to it just enough to not kill themselves, is part of the tumor. That’s you and yours to a tee.

    As I said to you before, we have no basis for discussion on this issue. I will now block you so I don’t have to go through this crap anymore. I unfortunately didn’t remember you when I replied to your comment above, but you won’t have to see that again.

  • chetdude


    But signaling from the top that pollution and social corruption will no longer be subsidized will help.

  • SteelPirate

    Let me refresh your memory…your words below.

    “We don’t substantially agree, because my most fundamental goal is for humans to return to living as hunter-gatherers and greatly lower their population to pre-agricultural levels, as we agree about 10 million globally . And my priority is all life, not human life. Earth First!”

    “With its extreme overconsumption and and overpopulation, the human race fits the medical definition of being a cancerous tumor on the Earth. It doesn’t have to be this way, humans could instead be a shining light on our planet. But choices made long ago, like using agriculture instead of remaining hunter-gatherers.”

    “Societies have to learn to stop living beyond their means so they don’t have to attack others to take their resources. If that means eventually returning to living as hunter-gatherers, so be it.”

    “As to agriculture in general, as I said it’s all harmful. The only proper way to live on the planet is as hunter-gatherers.”

    “From the point of view of anything else on Earth, humans have been overpopulating for 10,000 years. It’s just gotten much worse since the invention of artificial fertilizer, which provides even more food, and secondarily some medical science that allows some children to live who would have died of childhood diseases.”

    “I wouldn’t lift a finger for the human race until and unless it stops acting like a cancerous tumor on the Earth.”

    “Humans should focus on expanding our consciousness, not artificially and harmfully manipulating the physical world, like using agriculture does.”

    “The only proper way to live on the planet is as hunter-gatherers.”

    “Humans continue to get worse, hopefully their extinction is near.”


    My response below…

    I put Deep Ecologists, Anarcho-Primitivists, and Overpopulationists in the same category as Nazis. Ecofascists are a grave danger to the working class and the human race. You reactionary troglodytes are the enemy of the left, the enemy of the workers, the enemy of the class struggle, and the enemy of the human race.

  • Jeff


    But if people don’t demand or at the very least want the changes, the politicians will never propose or support them. This is a chicken-and-egg situation and it’s both, not one or the other.

    Leftists often use the excuse of “it’s only the rich or the rulers,” but that’s absolute BS. It’s everyone of us who supports this unnatural lifestyle. For example, driving an old beater does just as much damage from fossil fuel consumption & burning as driving a brand new Rolls Royce. To paraphrase Jesus, look in the mirror first. If you obsess on blaming others, you’re still a part of the problem and are just being hypocritical.

  • JohnDoe00

    Think I’m gonna’ save this guy for when I’m having a really bad day, SP.

  • SteelPirate

    We had a go with him on a previous thread before you got locked out of the cab.

  • Harbinger

    That is religion you are talking, not politics. That is not necessarily bad, but we should be clear. Politics is about power, not about human nature. “Man’s fall from grace” is a common religious theme.

    You ignore class-based society and instead blame agriculture. Capitalism is the maturation of class-based society. Overthrowing Capitalism gets at the root cause. It makes restoration of the natural world possible.

  • Nylene13

    Of course we humans are apes, what do you think we evolved from—


    B12 can be obtained in other ways, but for those of you who think you need animal protein, good eggs will supply all the B12 you need.

    And if they come from happy and healthy and free range chickens like mine, there ya go.

    Also Milk and Cheese supply animal protein, no need to eat meat at all. Just should not be supplied by exploited caged animals.

    I was not suggesting OJ as a protein source. I was suggesting it as a Vit. C source.

    You need to take some biology/science classes. Females are the race type. As opposed to what the Christian Bible says-Women were here first.

    Most all women I know prefer fruits and veggies to meat.

    More men are starting to as well.

  • SteelPirate

    Some good posts at Alternet you got going on. Well done. Can’t lend approval. They shadow banned me some time ago. This old nugget below send em over the edge 🙂

    The Democratic Party hangs out a sign – “we welcome the downtrodden, the poor and the persecuted.” But then when the people actually show up, they start complaining bitterly about the mud being tracked on their elegant imported carpet. They should take down that sign, or get rid of that damned carpet. But they won’t, not until and unless they are forced to. Forcing them to would take outside pressure, and outside pressure means organizing outside of the party, and organizing outside of the party means basing the movement on ideas that are universal and resonate with and redress the grievances and respond to the needs of all of the working people, not merely pander to the whims, prejudices and preferences of an enlightened few. That means real left-wing politics, and that is what the Democratic Party is avoiding at all costs.

  • chetdude

    Ah, but the People want the changes I’m talking about but not enough demand them…

    Chicken meet egg — People’s values and needs meet the USAmerican brand of Oligarchic Fascism and its propaganda machine…

  • chetdude

    Looks kinda like Elizabeth is outgunned… 😉

  • Nylene13

    I don’t dare reply to that.

  • Jeff

    Dead wrong. Using agriculture instead of living as hunter-gatherers is ecologically harmful per se, because it means killing native plants and the animals that depend on them. Then agriculture led to overpopulation because it circumvented the natural population control of food availability. Agriculture happened way before your class-based society, and even longer before capitalism. Your view is totally myopic because you start in the middle instead of at the beginning.

    You people in your left and right wing bubbles would be hilarious if you weren’t causing so much harm. There are much more and bigger issues than economics and class, starting with the natural environment and peace. Look at the big picture and stop being distracted by mere symptoms.

  • Jeff

    I’ve said this to you before. Your heart is obviously in the right place, but you’re badly misinformed and/or uninformed on some of these issues, so some of your statements are ridiculous. Humans are not apes, we’re different species. Perhaps you mean that we’re all primates, which is true. But evolving from a species is not the same as being that species.

    There is no natural source of vitamin B-12 except for animal products. Dairy is totally unnatural, so that’s out. Animal agriculture is the worst part of agriculture, so again I advocate eating wild fish and red meat. In the wild it’s bad to take eggs, because the young have to grow up and breed in order to maintain the species.

    As to women v. men, I don’t want to engage in that except for what I said earlier, which I stand by. No mammal would exist without men or women, so your statement is again ridiculous. It is you who needs to learn some basic biology. But whatever, I really don’t care about this issue.

  • GMOs Live Long & Prosper

    Lets have the group meet at the steakhouse!

  • Nylene13

    Humans evolved from vegetarian eating animals. Therefore the long intestines.

    Meat eating animals have very short intestines, to quickly get rid of the rotting meat inside them.

    Dairy-milking a cow or a goat-is not anymore “unnatural” than killing and cooking and eating that animal. And “cooking” meat is unnatural.

    Should humans eat raw meat?

    Even die hard meat eaters don’t suggest that.

    Milk can be eaten raw. I suggest cooking eggs.

    I think a cow or a goat would much rather be milked than killed. My goats come to me when it is milking time. I share milk with their babies- I milk once in the morning and leave them with their babies the rest of the day.

    I am not suggesting eggs be taken in the wild. I am suggesting people raise small flocks of chickens like Bantys, and let them free range in their backyards and garden areas.

    You don’t know what you are talking about, like most meat eaters.

  • Harbinger

    There is evidence that pre-Columbian peoples in the western hemisphere were doing an entirely different type of agriculture that was in fact sustainable. They were controlling game hers through controlled burning and other techniques. They were managing nit and fruit groves in diverse floral communities. Also, native plants are being killed much more by development than they are by farming, and plants such as beans, corn, squash and many others are native plants in the western hemisphere.

    How does the natural world get destroyed? Because someone owns it and can do what they want to it. How did that ownership of land come about? Agriculture.

    Human beings co-evolved with many of the species currently living in the planet. We aren’t aliens. Of course all problems caused by humans could be eliminated by eliminating humans or most of them., That is the easy way out and only exists in the realm of imagination or sci fi novels.

  • Jeff

    Agriculture is unnatural, so any result of it, like dairy, is unnatural. Saying that it’s natural to domesticate & confine another animal, then milk it and drink the milk of that animal, which is meant solely for that animal’s babies, is natural is ridiculous. And it’s totally unnatural to domesticate animals, that’s why we have zoonotic diseases like the coronavirus.

  • SCM

    You’re right about that. Almost every issue from environmental issues to misery and destitution is over population related. If we were hunter gatherers like 15,000 years ago much would go away. Including about 7.5 billion humans since we can not sustain much more without exploiting the planet, species and other peoples.

  • SCM

    Tell me more I want to go. Origin Oklahoma.

  • Observer

    Madea, please start learning about Red Lives taken at usually higher rate in most age brackets (CDC, FBI) by police and the highest per capita Covid infections in USA is on 3 Indian reservations and highest poverty, suicide, substance abuse, unemployment. The 1% that really matters is Native Americans and mainstream activists, politicians, public and reporters ignore ignore ignore. 2020 ironically is the 400th anniversary of Mayflower pilgrim settler ship crashing into Indigenous homelands. Native Lives Matter-under the knee and boot for centuries, America needs to decolonize minds before anything will thrive here.

  • Jeff

    Yes, but don’t forget about overconsumption. We have to greatly reduce both, not one or the other.

  • Nylene13

    The C virus is a result of meat markets! Right down the road from the Chinese Military Virus Lab is a Wild Animal Meat Market-that sold the same bats that the Lab used!

    Killing and Eating animals is what is ridiculous! Unless, as I said, you are descended from Tigers.

    What hunter -gather society do you want me to look at? –

    Even Native American Indians on Reservations today use Cars and Computer and TV’s.

    My animals are not that confined. Chickens and Goats are perfectly happy to go into their barns at night. Especially with coyotes around.

    If you want to argue against slaughterhouses and factory farming, that is OK with me.

    But my animals are not mistreated.

    Humans eating meat is what is unnatural.

  • chetdude

    Search “Trips to Cuba”…lots of ways to get there…

    Once airlines are flying again…

  • Jeff

    You’re letting your feelings prevent you from seeing reality. Totally avoiding meat is what is unnatural for humans. Humans eating meat is totally natural, we’ve always done it.

    As to hunter-gatherers, there are still 2-400,000 left, or you could research how previous ones lived. They all ate meat, none ate dairy, and none had domesticated animals used for food.

    As to zoonotic diseases, what I said is that they get transmitted to humans because humans confine animals. Simple as that. For example, humans get colds because the domesticated horses. I love horses so much I’m willing to suffer colds for them, but that’s how this stuff works.

  • Nylene13

    Many human cultures eat No meat. Eating meat is not natural for humans, just because humans do something, does not mean it is natural or healthy.

    Humans kill each other all this time, this does not mean it is natural or healthy to do so!

    Why should I research how previous hunter -gatherers lived?
    Should I also research how cannibals lived?
    By the way-the correct term is gatherer -hunters.
    The gathering is what mainly fed the early tribes.

    The bats that caused the C. Virus in China were from wild bats that were also sold at the wild meat market just down the road from the Chinese Military Virus Lab —which used the same kind of bats. It is obvious where the Lab got the bats from.

    Shut down the meat markets. We humans don’t need it!