Chris Hedges: ‘We Are In A Dangerous Time’

| Podcast

When we last interviewed Chris Hedges in December, we spoke about the coming uprising and whether the left was ready for it. Now we are in the midst of a nationwide rebellion against police violence and lack of protection for workers, right wing violence is on the rise and an election is nearing. We speak to Hedges about the ways the liberal class protects the status quo, his experiences studying the Christian Right and the times in which we live. Hedges covered wars and revolutions in Latin America, the Middle East and the former Yugoslavia so he has seen what the United States is currently experiencing.

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Guest:

Chris Hedges is a Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist who was a foreign correspondent for fifteen years for The New York Times, where he served as the Middle East Bureau Chief and Balkan Bureau Chief for the paper. He previously worked overseas for The Dallas Morning NewsThe Christian Science Monitor, and NPR. He writes a weekly column for the online magazine Truthdig out of Los Angeles and is host of the Emmy Award­–winning RT America show On Contact. Hedges, who holds a Master of Divinity from Harvard University, is the author of the bestsellers American Fascists, Days of Destruction­, Days of Revolt, and was a National Book Critics Circle finalist for War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning. He has taught at Columbia University, New York University, Princeton University, and the University of Toronto. He currently teaches college credit courses in the New Jersey prison system.

  • rgaura

    The test does not test for virus. It tests for a bit of RNA hat many people have. Testing positive does not mean you are sick, or that you are infectious. This flu is not anymore dangerous than other flus. We are almost at herd immunity already, look at the death stats, going down for months!
    You missed the global uprising for freedom on Sunday.

  • sabelmouse

    missed on purpose i suppose.
    the testing helps establish propaganda/panic in the unthinking.

  • sabelmouse

    very dangerous. unless we resist we’ll likely live in a fascist dystopia soon, globally and it could take decades/centuries to get human/civil rights back.

  • John R.

    FYI – the discussion with Chris Hedges begins at 32:00 .

  • John R.

    What a pleasure to listen to an intelligent discussion with three informed adults (that understand our white power structure) about the current state of affairs in this failing country.

  • Bullshit you asshole.

  • John R.

    I don’t know what the poster wrote to warrant your response because I’ve already blocked them – it’s easier that way.

  • kevinzeese

    Rgaura is a denier of COVID, people should ignore these comments. The US has had more than 180,000 deaths from COVID since March. This is the largest cause of death other than cancer and heart disease. The seasonal flu is also a serious health problem but nothing like COVID which spreads more easily and is deadly.

    Rgaura does not understand testing or infection from COVID These comments should be considered false information and an example of the sickness of denialism about a very serious pandemic that the US has mishandled from the president down to many boards of elections that are foolishly opening schools without proper precautions in place.

  • Bill Rood

    Wait, what? “We” were planning for this “uprising” way back last December? So you’re telling us there was a plan to create all this chaos in the middle of an election year?

  • Bill Rood

    No, Kevin. It is you who are in denial. You are so steeped in Trump Derangement Syndrome that you reject all evidence that he might ever have been right about anything. (Full disclosure: I voted for Jill Stein and have no plans to vote for Trump in November.)

    The panic was orchestrated by WHO and Neil Ferguson’s Imperial College modeling. WHO intentionally exaggerated the case fatality rate. This was documented in a video by Ben Swann. It wasn’t until the Stanford-Santa Clara and Gangelt studies in late April that a more accurate estimate was obtained. By that time, we were well past the peak of deaths, which occurred about April 9 and has been declining steadily since as hospitals have learned to ignore the WHO recommended treatment protocol.

    The deaths in nursing homes were not an accident, as nursing homes in several states were ordered (contrary to advice from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services) to accept active Covid-19 patients prematurely released from hospitals due to “triage,” (in anticipation of a flood of younger patients whose lives were considered more valuable). Older patients were also coerced into signing DNRs.

    WHO also recommended a treatment protocol that discourage the use of corticosteroids, which have been helpful in treating similar disease, instead promoting reliance on deadly ventilators. This is documented by the Eastern Virginia Medical School in there paper describing the MATH+ protocol, though they do no suggest the error was deliberate. I do suggest that, based on all the other nefarious anomalies like the whole HCQ dispute, excessive isolation and mask wearing to damage the public’s immunity in hopes of creating a 2nd wave, the financial ties between Big Pharma and UN/government bureaucracies, the need to provide cover for an already unfolding financial collapse etc.

    One really need look no further than the censorship occurring on YouTube to understand the truth, because Truth does not fear Doubt and has no need to censor contradictory opinions.

  • Nylene13

    One thing everyone can right now-do is to Stop Eating Meat.

    Shut down the slaughterhouses and the cattle ranchers and the pig farms.

    Aside from the disease and horror of such places-eating meat is not good for our health, our wild lands and waters and air and our wild and domestic animals.

    Have a nice veggie burger instead.

  • kevinzeese

    I am not sure what you are referring to. If you are commenting on the fact we interviewed Hedges in December and all of us so an uprising coming, that is not planning an uprising. There have been ongoing uprisings on one issue or another since Occupy in 2011. Police violence often sets off protests and sometimes riots. This has not only been true since the Obama-era, but back into the 1960s.

    We are trying to educate the movement to be more effective. We produced a school on How Social Transformation Occurs because we saw the movement growing and multiple crisis situation in the US — and this was before the pandemic and economic collapse. The school can bee see at http://www.PopularResistance.org/school/ There are also a lot of written materials that go with it.

  • blessthebeasts

    This forum is becoming increasingly irrelevant because of your support of the fear-laden narrative of the pandemic.
    FYI, the seasonal flu is also deadly. Surprised you don’t realize that.

  • Nylene13

    Interesting that you are pro-meat eating and also don’t believe in the C. Virus.

    How convenient.

  • Trakar

    our nation, likely our global civilization, and quite possibly our species, itself, is unlikely to survive that long. It will be extremely difficult for our nation to survive the next couple of decades, without drastic and dramatic changes that most of the population is not currently prepared to embrace.

  • Wayne Turner

    During the 2018-2019 flu season, the CDC estimated 34,200 deaths in which the flu was a factor. 2017-2018 saw an estimate of 61,000 deaths. Prior season estimates were 38,000, 23,000 and 51,000 accordingly. From 2/1/20 to 8/29/30, the CDC lists deaths involving COVID-10 AND pneumonia, minus influenza, as 75,199. Adding influenza as a cause of death, including the possible presence of COVID or pneumonia, shows only 6,657 deaths for this period. Numbers for COVID without pneumonia, or pneumonia without COVID are unavailable, but pneumonia kill about 50,000 people per year in the US. If we assumed that the number 75,199 above could be reduced to 25,199 COVID-19 deaths by attributing 50,000 to pneumonia (to be conservative), the number of COVID 19 deaths in this date range would still be 3.8 times greater than the number of flu deaths in that period. Of course, the actual number of deaths attributable to COVID-19, with or without an additional factor, is many times higher than that. The physicist Lord Kelvin, William Thompson, said ““When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it.” Making a simple statement like “..the seasonal flu is also deadly” may seem smugly erudite to some people, but if you are unaware of the numerical description of which you speak, for applicable topics, then you don’t know much about it, and the only people who will take you seriously will be those for whom your statement confirms a bias they already hold. Examples are claiming that AGW is merely the weather, pollution is caused by trees (Reagan) and there are more murders in countries which ban guns than those that do not. You can choose to be afraid of the virus or not, but you can’t blame people who are afraid of it of being hysterical. On the other hand, they can justifiably blame you of ignorance.

  • daedalus43

    So, please explain why South Korea (first case on about the same day as US) now has 6 deaths per million as compared to almost a hundred times that rate in the US?

    South Korea is a capitalist nation. It has a large urban center and a population of a little less than 1/6th that of the US. They depend on a manufacturing base as well as export/import trade and live on a relatively small landmass, thus making social distancing that much more difficult.

    However, S. Korea really did go into panic mode, even before they confirmed their first case. They were ready to make PPE available and impose restrictions when the first case appeared in late January. Whereas our strategy was to ignore any warning and just hope the disease would stay away, magically disappear.

    So, based on the comparison, it appears that 99% of the deaths from covid19 in the US could have been prevented if only we would have ‘panicked’ and prepared like North Korea. Allow me to translate: Because of our ‘leadership’s’ head-in-the sand approach, and, of course, those that followed that ‘leadership’, today over 180,000 Americans are dead, and the number is growing. In other words, those people caused a death toll equal to 60 World Trade Center events, and they create another World Trade Center sized event every four days. Had we followed South Koreas ‘panic’ we would have seen less that 2,000 deaths TOTAL in the United States to date.

    The traitors who ignored early warnings and failed to protect Americans have killed more Americans since January then our ‘enemies’ did during our wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Viet Nam and Korea COMBINED!.

  • daedalus43

    Compare the numbers.

    The ‘seasonal flu’ for the past decade or so averages about 30,000 deaths per a 12 month year. These are ‘estimated’ based on symptoms and complications.

    Covid19 has killed 185,000 Americans in the last 7 MONTHS! Most of these were tested to confirm the virus. Who knows what that will be at the end of a full year. Now, it’s clear that by election day we will be well over 200,000.

  • rgaura

    Try to be respectful and civil. Dispute on the merits and data, please. I am open to discussion, not vulgarity.

  • rgaura

    New York had 70 TIMES the fatality rate that other countries and states had. You have to see a eugenics sort of agenda in the prevention of education and preventive measures (like vitamin C, D, zinc, etc. Also HClQ and ivermectin. Doctors all over the world have found remedies that turned around severe respiratory problems in 24 hours. Chinese used herbs and vitamins. C. Somehow, the protocols used in the US, the general poor health and air quality, and denial of effective interventions, as well as huge financial windfalls for starving hospitals if they followed the drug and ventilate protocol that has a 10% survival rate (even before Covid19, 2/3 of those put on ventilators were dead within the year, as its an end of life last ditch sort of treatment). 70 Times, not 70%. Think about that.
    Sensibly treated, its not deadly. With a poorly functioning immune system, it may be serious or fatal. So, the whole population has been subject to fear, obsessive hand washing, masking, financial ruin, social isolation, and more fear, All of which damage the immune system,
    All this as we wait for the vaccine unicorn!
    The CDC just announced that actually only 6% of the reported covid deaths actually died of covid, and not other morbidities. They changed the way they have kept death stats for 17 years to inflate the numbers.
    Kevin, this is such a mindfuck, you need to read the Children’s Health Defense Fund articles for the real science behind the scare/vaccine pushing PR campaign.

  • sabelmouse

    i’m in europe.

  • sabelmouse

    why?

  • Nylene13

    See my comment below.

  • John R.

    “You can choose to be afraid of the virus or not, but you can’t blame people who are afraid of it . . . “

    Good reply one I feel the same way. Please try to make paragraphs for easier reading. Thank you.

  • Alan MacDonald

    Joe Biden is going to get the exact same advantage in twice yelling, “I’m not going to ban fracking”, that President George H. W. Bush got from saying twice “Read my lips — no new taxes” — except that Biden won’t even win the Presidency Once!

    This ONE egregious error on Biden’s part will put an essential, seriously, and total turn toward a truly “Our Revolutionary” platform.

    As my current double-sided signs simply say:

    “Our Revolution”
    TO DUMP
    EMPEROR TRUMP

    and on the other side:

    GET ‘WOKE’ &
    ‘FOLK’ THE
    EMPIRE

    This one mistake by Biden will now, IMHO, effectively turn a dud 2020 (11th ‘least worst voting’ cycle) into a truly Revolutionary extension of what should have happened in 1944 with the presidency of FDR’s brilliant ‘socialist’ VP Henry Wallace, and the movement to ‘we the American people’ firing a; loud, public, sustained, ‘in-the-streets’, but totally non-violent “SHOUT (not shot) heard round the world” to ignite an essential Second American people’s peaceful and complete “Political/economic & socialist Revolution Against Empire”, “for the ‘Common Man’, as Wallace shouted”, and to lead the world toward socialist and racial democracy as our first one couldn’t in 1776 — but which we now can accomplish — but without the Muskets.

    And the simplest way to shout-out a chant against EMPIRE and for democracy is:

    “Show me what democracy looks like”
    “This ain’t what democracy looks like”
    “This is what an EMPIRE looks like”

  • Trakar

    Though you may not be worried about the fate of the U.S., you should be. Other than this, however, how does this exempt you and your statement from what I stated?

  • sabelmouse

    same old NONE sense.

  • sabelmouse

    it doesn’t. i’m just countering the endless comments of ”our nation/murica”.

  • sabelmouse

    denier, eh, like them old heretics who denied godd/church/pope and deserve burning?
    that word says it all.

  • sabelmouse

    indeed!

  • sabelmouse

    all flu deaths, heart deaths, stroke deaths, cancer deaths are now covid deaths. simples!

  • sabelmouse

    i don’t know, i know many who plain refuse to inform themselves/think.
    they actually chose to believe propaganda.
    in the beginning there was not even any censorship re this.
    the info was all there, and still mostly is.

  • sabelmouse

    you blocked wrong.

  • John R.

    Perhaps. Don’t recall why I’d already blocked said poster but I did. I don’t think it’s OK to name call either. Thanks for reply.

  • sabelmouse

    🙂

  • Trakar

    There is a big difference between appreciation for the benefits one’s nation offers them, and an irrational nationalistic fervor in denial of the failures and deficiencies of one’s nation. I am patriotic towards my nation but I do have a pragmatic and realistic understanding of my nation’s faults and flaws. Likewise, I more than understand and empathize with your sentiment regarding those who mistakenly conflate patriotism with irrational nationalism.

  • Nylene13

    Yes you are.

  • Trakar

    I don’t see a reason to ban all meat, though I’d definitely agree that those who do eat meat should consume much less of it than is traditional in our average grossly obese and unhealthy population. Likewise an emphasis should be made regarding locally, and sustainably produced meats and plant foods.

  • Alan MacDonald

    As I just commented on the New York “Times”, now that we are only two
    months from Disguised Global Crony Capitalist EMPIRE DAY — time for
    someone other than me to raise this seminal Election Meta-causal and
    ‘Cancer of Empire’ factor by the DEMS, eh??:

    @Alan MacDonald

    Talk about the police negotiating with kidnappers and demanding “Proof of Life” — here’s “Proof of Empire”:

    Just this morning Free Speech TV’s “Democracy Now” Amy Goodman, along
    with many other major TV networks, reported that Emperor Trump demanded
    that Secretary of Empire, Mike Pompeous, announce that severe sanctions
    be placed on the ICC (International Criminal Court) and Chief
    Prosecutor of the ICC who is investigating the American Empire, and that
    Emperor Trump is escalating his war on the ICC by threatening any
    investigation of U.S., Israeli, or allied occupation forces.

    Now, if throwing that ‘shot across the bow’ of the ICC, which is the
    only global organization to investigate war crimes, genocide, illegal
    military; actions, invasions, and terrorism by ‘state parties’ — then my
    demonstration, march, and protest signs and calling-out this obviously
    insane Emperor Trump as, not only thinking he is the Emperor of America,
    but such a megalomaniac as to think he is actually the ‘Emperor of the
    World’ is clear “Proof of Empire”.

    Katherine Gallagher of the ‘Center for Constitutional Rights’ rightly and strongly complained.

  • Mike Stevens

    Wow!
    Thanks, Bill.
    …I just won the Covid Conspiracy Bingo!

  • Mike Stevens

    “The test does not test for virus.”
    …The tests do indeed check for virus. They use a specific molecular “genetic fingerprint” assay called a Reverse Transcriptase PCR, which detects sequences of viral RNA unique to the specific strain of virus.
    More information is here: PMC7197457
    This is only one of many types of assay for the SARS-CoV-19 virus.

    “This flu is not anymore dangerous than other flus.”
    …This “flu” has numerous significant, serious complications, and in those who are older or who have significant comorbidities it has a high fatality rate. The overall IFR is around 0.5-1% (but as we become better experienced in treating serious infections the case fatality is dropping). This is still between 5-10 times more lethal than normal influenza.

    “We are almost at herd immunity already, look at the death stats, going down for months!”
    …Herd immunity is still some way off, although it may be achievable at lower overall rates of than first envisaged. The R0 of this virus in usual conditions of spread is between 2.0 and 3.0, meaning that to achieve herd immunity you need over 50% of the population to have been infected, recovered from infection and to now be immune. It’s possible some coronaviral cross immunity may help boost herd immunity through historical infections with other coronaviruses.
    Herd immunity doesn’t determine the death rate.
    Overall, in the USA deaths are running at around 900-1000 per day on average, and have been increasing if anything over the last couple of months. They show no signs of “going down for months” as you claim.

  • Nylene13

    We don’t need -so why eat it?

  • sabelmouse

    yawn.

  • Alan MacDonald

    This “failing country”, John, is an EMPIRE — actually a Disguised Global Crony Capitalist Empire — and an Empire controlling this faux-Emperor Trump (who is only a nasty Chucky-doll puppet of the dual-party Vichy-facades of faux-democracy, which is directly controlled by this DGCCEmpire itself).

  • Trakar

    Why force people to give something up they don’t have to, if it is sustainably produced and eaten in healthy portions. I’d be much more inclined to ban sugar and fruit juices if we are going that route, long before I’d put meat on such a verbotten foods list as they are responsible for much worse health outcomes and humans certainly don’t require them to survive.

  • Nylene13

    Because animals are living creatures who love their lives and families just as much as you (supposedly) do.

    When you say “sustainably produced” you show you do not realize they are living creatures who feel love and pain just like you do.

    They are “produced” and killed under horrific circumstances.

    I am all for banning ‘produced’ sugar and fruit juices. Fine with me.

    Eat an apple instead.

  • SCM

    Not really. the late 60s were worse. same shit though. Elite playing us like a fiddle. Classic divide and conquer while they run away with all the marbles. Once Biden wins it’s business as usual again. Only reason they don’t like Trump is he resists Several regime changes they have on the plate. Look at all the never trumpets, classic neocons.

  • zak1

    GOOD REPARTEE
    Kevin and Margaret – the rapid back and forth repartee you use during your portion of the show is a good presentational technique that energizes the conversation – you should advise Howie Hawkins and Angela Walker to follow your example in their own YouTube chats, instead of having one start with a monologue while the other sits waiting – you might also suggest this to Danny Haiphong and Margaret Kimberly for their (excellent) new show

    MEDIA IS MAIN SOCIAL CONTROL TOOL – POLICE ARE BACKUP
    Hedges makes the point that police and prisons are the primary tools of social control with respect to the dispossessed – I think this is true, but he needs to tie this in with the population as a whole – the corporate media are the overall means of social control, that shapes the public perception of reality – and then police and prisons are the backup, to deal with those who are too materially desperate to fall for the narrative

    GOOD QUESTION ABOUT GREEN PARTY BLACKOUT
    You asked a great question towards the end, about this brick wall the Greens are facing with the media and even among progressives, and how to push through it – you should have asked this at the beginning of your talk – most of the conversation was the standard critique of Clintonism that readers here have heard a million times – your audience here is very educated about these issues – you need to spend more of your time pushing into new territory instead of rehashing familiar points – tellingly, Hedges didn’t really answer your question – he spoke too much in terms of larger structural points – I think this is his natural way of warming up to the topic, but by the time he’d warmed up, your time was over

    WHY NOT ASK HEDGES MORE ABOUT LEFT UNITY TODAY?
    Hedges had just spoken at the People’s Party Convention (I notice the Greens weren’t invited?) – your time with him should have focused entirely on this – what’s going on with DemExit and this People’s Party, and why progressive media are shunning Hawkins/ Walker (talk about what’s happening NOW, since 2016 – not Eugene Debs again, for God’s sake!) You did mention third parties’ contributions, but, again, from 150 years ago, rather than focusing on the Greens now, and the left unity Hawkins/Walker are trying to build – why not ask Hedges specifically about this Left Unity campaign – maybe he could give you a critique – and what about Left Media Unity? You could push him to talk about his own colleagues, and their thoughts about the Greens, and how together you could build up a sort of media campaign to counteract this Green Party blackout – push as organizers to get something concrete out of your guests that will benefit your candidates

    GOOD POINT ABOUT DEMOCRACY NOW – QUESTION WORTH INVESTIGATING
    You mentioned Democracy Now – that was good – you’ve mentioned them a few times, and bringing them up like this might help pressure Amy Goodman to relent and do an interview – though when you mention Amy Goodman you might also raise the question about why she’s NOT interviewing Hawkins/Walker – when just 4 years ago she’d been far more openly supportive – ask what’s going on NOW – not 20-50 years ago – we need this analysis

    ASK PROGRESSIVE JOURNALISTS WHAT’S GOING ON – MAKE IT A TOPIC
    (did you ask Amy Goodman? Did she give a reason why she’s stopped covering you – if this was related to her Dakota arrest? Or did she avoid talking to you? Or did you not ask her directly? Did you push Krystal Ball and Bhaskar Sunkara to cover your campaign some more? Did you ask Chris Hedges if he’d be willing to make more noise about your campaign? Did you ask Cornel West why the People’s Party isn’t even mentioning the Greens as an option in 2020, and what he thinks about this?)

    12 TOP PROGRESSIVE OUTLETS ALL IGNORE THE GREENS
    Besides Amy Goodman, Joanne Chateau lists the 12 top “independent” progressive outlets, including The Nation, The Intercept, The Young Turks, Current Affairs, Grist, Real News Network, Democracy at Work, Jacobin, Common Dreams, Redacted Tonight, and Bernie Sanders – and ALL of these are shunning the Green Party and the Hawkins/Walker campaign! Your site could do a search on all these websites to see how much attention they’ve given the Greens – then you could write up an article here calling them out –

    INVITE KSHAMA SAWANT TO DISCUSS LEFT UNITY OBSTACLES
    Kshama Sawant has some gripes with your party, but she’s endorsing Hawkins/Walker, as she did Jill Stein, and she’s encouraging others to do so – her organization has been very consistent about solidarity and open dialogue with the Greens – you or Hawkins should invite her onto your show to discuss Hawkins’ Left Unity campaign – regarding left parties, left media, and other groups – what exactly is going on in her view – what are the obstacles and how can the Hawkins/Walker campaign respond?

    HOW CAN PROGRESSIVES CALL FOR UNITY WHILE IGNORING THE GREENS?
    Basically, Hawkins/Walker are trying to run a left unity campaign – so why don’t you use your website to analyze the challenges of left unity here and now? Isn’t that the elephant in the room – the entire progressive establishment is calling for left unity, and yet they’re shunning the left unity campaign that’s going on right under their noses?

    Don’t you have ANY allies who are willing to call them out for this blatant contradiction?

    COUNTERPUNCH THIS WEEKEND
    Among the latest Counterpunch articles this weekend, Richard Moser mentions Greens positively as part of our historic third party tradition:

    ‘We must find the modern equivalent of the great slave rebellion, the abolitionist soldier and anti-slavery movement that together made a new revolutionary party. Look to the “Left-Unity” Hawkins/Walker campaign of the Green Party, the massive resistance against police violence and the strike wave triggered by the pandemic for clues as to what that looks like.’

    YET ANOTHER PEOPLE’S PARTY SMEAR – WON’T GREENS RESPOND?
    But more typical is what Scott Owen has to say about the Greens in a recent article, on the same site, about the People’s Party:

    ‘The Green Party also has suffered from its inability to grab the public’s attention, except for in a few small, very progressive communities … The Greens have become known as nothing more or better than a lowly third-party spoiler, a long-time, going no-where failure of a party, and we will not see a political revolution coming from there.’

    This sounds accurate (though the article is disingenuous in speaking of public ‘perception’ without bringing up the recent progressive media blackout that’s feeding this view) – the perception of you folks among progressives is that you’re like that scrawny kid in the old Charles Atlas comic ad, who gets sand kicked in his face at the beach.

    You can go on and on complaining about how the corporate media is rigged against you – but the fact is that their tactics are working

    WHY SHOULD PEOPLE’S PARTY SMEAR GREENS – WHERE IS THEIR CANDIDATE?

    – in 2016, a People’s Party Convention would not have been able to so easily brush the Greens aside – the fact that they’re excluding you like this makes me think their party is another sheepdogging ruse, cooked up by the DNC PR machine, to neutralize the DemExiters during this 2020 season – in 2024 they’ll come up with a new excuse to defer to the Democrats

    – at the very least, their behavior and rhetoric towards the Greens reflects a toxic corporate competitiveness that is like a virus their leadership likely caught from their time with the Corporatist Democrats – whatever happened to solidarity?

    – what can you do to push back against this? I suggest a change of tactics

  • Christina Phillips

    Then all-cause deaths wouldn’t be in such high numbers in excess of normal.

  • Trakar

    Rights are won, and held only with constant vigilance and the capacity to defend and enforce those rights against those who would steal/ignore them. This doesn’t mean that I don’t respect the lives of livestock as well as their quality of life, quite the opposite is true.
    There is no sustainable way to raise sufficient numbers of large herbivores so that everyone can eat the way the typical American has for the last half century,…nor should any want to. I’m not promoting factory farms or industrial slaughter houses, but that is not the only way to raise livestock or produce meat.
    …no one is forcing anyone to eat anything, those are choices we are all free to make for ourselves.

  • Nylene13

    I do not understand what you are trying to say in your first paragraph. If you win a Right, what ever it is, that gives you the Right to defend it?
    What about human slavery? That used to be a Right, in this country.

    Things change, if we let them.

    If you feel animal protein is necessary, and you want to grow you own, you can always raise free -range chickens for their eggs. Extra males can go to folks who want to start their own small chicken flocks. Old roosters and hens still make great bug eaters and garden manure makers.

    The old hens help with the chicks too.

    You can also raise goats for their milk and cheese.

    Nigerian Dwarf Goats are small, and make great bush eaters.

    That is all the animal protein anyone could possibly need. No need to kill for it.

    “Free choice” should take into consideration what that choice makes on others, and the Environment.

  • Jan Woods

    Slavery was never a “right.” You my not, it seems, understand the concept of rights.

  • Nylene13

    It was a legal right, which I think is what this guy was referring to.

  • Jeff

    Greens aren’t “ignored,” they are censored (ignore the technicality that censorship is by the government, it media censorship has the same effect). Amy Goodman and the supposedly progressive media all have bad cases of TDS, and they’d support Hitler against Trump if the Democratic party nominated him.

    Real news and information now comes from totally alternative sources, some of whom are political comedians: Jimmy Dore, Crystal Ball, Aaron Mate, Glenn Greenwald, Chris Hedges, Lee Camp, etc. Amy Goodman has become just another shill for the Democratic Party in her fanatic opposition to Trump, much less useful information on her show than there used to be.

  • Trakar

    I do raise and harvest the vast majority of the meat and animal products I consume the only exception is the water buffalo meat and milk which I trade for with a neighbor of ours. My wife and our children are allergic to the casein protein in most normal cow milk but water buffalo are naturally A2-A2 creatures and produce a milk that is high in cream fats. We use milk from grass-fed water buffalo to produce ice creams, butters and cheeses and we swap out some hog meat cuts (which we raise and harvest) for yearling buffalo meat with our neighbor ever year, or two, which more than meets our family needs as we don’t eat much large animal meat. We do raise rabbits, chickens, ducks, catfish, blue-gill, and we pasture a few hogs each year and all of our farming is sustainable and environmentally sound, so you are largely preaching to the choir.

  • Trakar

    “It was a legal right…”

    Not what I’m talking about.

  • Trakar

    “…The Green Party has become a socialist party(…) so it makes no sense to form another socialist party.”

    What leads you to believe that the Green Party is a socialist party? Why do you feel that the presence of one socialist party should negate other socialist parties? We have two capitalistic fascist parties and they both seem to be very popular, and are responsible for the majority of our nation’s governance for the last couple of centuries or so.

  • Jeff

    1. Because their platform is socialist, or at least some form of leftist (perhaps I should have said “leftist” instead of “socialist”). But whatever they are, they’re certainly not green, and my parenthetical comment above explains why.

    2. Because if you’re trying to displace the establishment, you can’t break into factions instead of fighting it with one force. There is very little difference between the Democrats and Republicans, but people have a tribal identity with one party or the other. Nothing like that exists with the other parties, and you just end up splitting the progressive vote by having more than one. If we had proportional representation, which we should have and which every other democracy in the world beside England has, then this isn’t a factor. But in the U.S. unrepresentative winner-take-all system, you don’t want to split the vote with multiple leftists parties when you’re trying to displace establishment candidates. And BTW, the largest voting block in the U.S. is people who don’t vote. That’s who we need to go after.

  • Trakar

    “… you don’t want to split the vote with multiple leftists parties when you’re trying to displace establishment candidates…”

    The two mainstream neoliberal, corporatist fascist parties (Democraps and Republitards) argues against your point.

  • Nylene13

    Raising your own meat does not make it OK to kill the animals you raise.

    How about this-A highly intelligent race of beings shows up here on Earth. They are hungry from their long trip across the Universe.

    Is it OK if they eat your kids?

    They will treat your kids kindly and not cause them much pain.

  • Jeff

    Respond to my comment in context (full sentence, not a partial one like you did), then discuss why you think it’s wrong. I explained that there’s a huge difference between insurgent parties and established ones. Democrats and Republicans can afford to split the vote, because it’s basically one party with two factions, and because there are no other viable parties in national and statewide elections, and even in the vast majority of local elections. I’m speaking not only from theory, but also from my experience working on political campaigns and running one.

  • Jeff

    You are dead wrong. The fatality rate from COVID-19 in the U.S. is about 3%. That’s much higher than from regular flu.

  • Jeff

    To balance my response to rgaura, it must be noted that in a country with 330 million people, 6 million cases is less than 0.2% of the population (fewer than 2 people out of every thousand have contracted COVID-19), and the deaths from it are only 3% of that. The problem is, or at least could be, that the number of infections from pandemics can increase geometrically, so these numbers could increase a lot very quickly. But if COVID-19 were to stop today, it would have been much ado about nothing.

  • Jeff

    There is no such thing as sustainable farmed meat. In fact, the term “sustainable” is propaganda. I’m not opposed to eating meat occasionally, but you should limit your meat consumption to wild fish & seafood, or hunt and fish yourself for your meat. All farmed meat is extremely environmentally and ecologically harmful, especially beef, and is cruel to animals.

  • Jeff

    Stop eating farmed meat. Wild meat is fine as long as you don’t eat it more than once/week on average.

  • Jeff

    Stop saying this Nylene, it’s as false as anything Trump says. Humans need meat or eggs for vitamin B-12, and since I advocate limiting one’s meat consumption to wild meat, eating eggs of wild animals would be very ecologically harmful. (I’m ignoring dairy, which is totally unnatural and is also very environmentally and ecologically harmful.) The only other source of vitamin B-12 would be a supplement, which is by definition artificial. Humans have been eating meat their entire existence, so to advocate that we stop is nonsensical.

  • Jeff

    The U.S. has been fascist for a long time. “Fascism” means rule by the corporations, and the government was captured them a long time ago.

  • Nylene13

    I think Trump or Biden are pretty equal on the false front.

    That is right-eggs can provide B-12 for Vegetarians. I don’t advocate limiting ones meat to eating wild meat. You do.

    I think people should only eat chicken eggs from their own backyard-free range flocks. (and share with friends/neighbors)

    Dairy is not unnatural-Certainly far less unnatural than killing animals for meat, for sure. My goats are quite happy, and we share 50/50 with the baby goats.

    (No -that is not cheating the babies, but as I have been a Breastfeeding Mom and you have not-let me just say that supply equals demand)
    My goats are not environmentally or ecologically harmful in any way. You don’t know what you are talking about.

    I am not a Vegan so I can’t speak to B12 Supplements. But many people take all kinds of vitamins.

    But I can say that chicken eggs and goats/cows milk and cheese will give humans all the vitamin B -12 they need.

  • Nylene13

    I disagree. Eggs, Milk and Cheese are all the animal foods humans NEED to eat.

  • Nylene13

    All meat eating is cruel to animals. One could argue eggs are meat, but day old eggs are not chickens yet.

    Which is another reason to have backyard chickens. Gather those fresh eggs every day.

  • Jeff

    Civilized humans are clueless about real life. There’s nothing cruel about eating wild animals. Do you consider lions, tigers, sharks and most other fish, wolves, raptors, and other predators cruel? That’s absurd. Hunting animals to eat is totally natural and is the way the natural world works. We live on a planet where the animals eat each other, what don’t you get about this?

  • cechas vodobenikov

    societies where red meat is consumed far more obtain the best health, left obesity and longest life expectancies—Hong Kong is the best example

  • cechas vodobenikov

    “only in the anglospehere do people particularize and decontextualize”. Richard Sennet…..observed by Lakoff, Tocqueville, Gorer, Galtung, Gessen, etc
    amerikans are unaware how different they from civilized peoples—puritanical depersonalized , unable to think or feel…Koestler compared amerikans to 5th century Romans when it was near collapse….”a similarly contactless society populated by automatons…a similarly soulless, politically corrupt, everybody for themselves society”
    decaying empires do not reform—they suicide

  • sabelmouse

    yes, it has, but it’s getting worse, and worser, it’s getting global!

  • Nylene13

    Lions, Tigers, Sharks and most other Fish, Wolves, Raptors, and other predators have no choice.

    We Humans do.

    That is the difference.

  • zak1

    Yes, of course – in reality it’s very deliberate censorship – but they won’t admit that’s what they’re doing – they feed us this bogus horserace narrative to make us think Greens don’t “deserve” the “honor” of being covered by these idiots – blaming the Greens when it’s the media who refuse to do their jobs and keep us informed

    I think something happened to Amy Goodman – she was giving huge support to Jill Stein, then Goodman got arrested covering the pipeline protests, and after that she suddenly stopped covering the Greens

    Krystal Ball, similarly, was giving positive coverage to Hawkins, then she suddenly disappeared “on leave” and after that stopped even mentioning him on her show

    Jimmy Dore also seems quite suspicious in the way he’s been lambasting Hawkins nonstop over some ambiguous Russiagate comments – after Dore openly supported Sanders, who’s been a strident and open Russiagater

    I think the biggest story this election is what’s happening with DemExit and how the media’s handling it – how so much of the energy is being siphoned off by this People’s Party, who are running no candidates this year, and whose leadership somehow refuses to support Howie Hawkins’ campaign

    – in fact, the People’s Party leadership smears the Greens every chance they get (see their website FAQ) – and so they are offering no advice to their DemExit membership as to how to vote in 2020

    – this somehow defeats the purpose of DemExit, doesn’t it – neutralizing their votes and momentum during this crucial 2020 race? (I have a feeling they’ll come up empty again in 2024) Why is nobody covering this or asking these questions?

  • Jeff

    No we don’t, that’s where you’re wrong. Humans need meat in order to be healthy. Otherwise, they either suffer from lack of vitamin B-12 or have to take an artificial supplement, both grossly inferior choices to just eating a little wild meat once in a while.

  • Jeff

    That’s total BS. What are you, some shill for the meat industry? It’s totally unnatural for people to eat a lot of meat, we didn’t evolve that way and we’re not predators, we’re omnivores.

    If you want to challenge me on this, provide some citations to credible sources that support your claim. I’m not going to hold my breath.

  • Jeff

    The People’s Party FAQ doesn’t “smear” the Green Party, it discusses logistical/financial issues. I totally disagree with the
    People’s Party’s priorities — peace and the environment should always be the top priorities — but their difference of opinion/perspective/attitude doesn’t amount to a smear.

    Amy Goodman was slipping even before Trump got elected. But once he did, like most other progressives, she lost her mind. I also have a major problem with her obsession with minor issues like trans issues — I realize that every issue is important to someone, but minor issues only affect a small percentage of one species and are thus not important in the big picture.

    Jimmy Dore is hardcore anti-Russiagate, as I am. I fully agree with his criticism of Hawkins for spouting that crap, which is nothing but Democratic Party propaganda used as an excuse for losing to Donald Trump, and which has the negative effect of war-mongering against Russia of of McCartyite smearing of people. Jimmy Dore sometimes talks about destruction of the environment, but he’s a leftist and he doesn’t prioritize environmental issues at all, so I disagree with him strongly on that.

    To what Crystal Ball absence are you referring? I haven’t noticed anything lately, though the other guy on the show took a week off about a month ago. She’s definitely not as radical as I am, but she’s honest and her show provides a good perspective even when I don’t agree with what is said there.

    I have a major problem with the Green Party (even though I’m registered Green and vote that way), because they relegated peace and the environment to being just two in a long line of issues, instead of the priorities that they were and should be, 20-30 years ago in order to try to win elections. But unfortunately the Green Party is as close as it gets to my views being represented, so I hold my nose and vote for their candidates.

  • Trakar

    I do hunt and fish, as well as farm both plants and animals (to include a lot of feeder insects which helps me to add a lot protein to the other livestock at a very economical and sustainable rate). I don’t personally raise beef, but I do raise a few pasture pigs every other year or so (which are probably treated just as poorly in industrial farms as the cattle are). But that’s not how I, nor most of the farmers I know, raise our livestock or run our farms.

    I barter or buy/sell everything I consume (aside from a few supplements that I haven’t figured out how to reproduce yet – but i am working on) within a 20 mile radius of my home. I usually trade ham, sausage and some porkbelly for some water buffalo roasts, a loin, tail and bones. LIkewise I trade eggs and poultry meat for A2-A2 milk from the same buffalo farmer (makes great cheese and butter). Most of my fish comes from the ponds and streams on my land, though I am expanding my aquaculture systems and am currently releasing as much water as I cache in the fall and spring with testing to assure that the water i release is at least as fresh and healthful as the rain runoff I capture and cache for use in my operations.

    I have solar panels, micro-hydro and micro-wind systems, as well as a backup chinese generator that I run off biodiesel I make myself for those times when the batteries are low, and I have neither sun nor wind to charge my fences, power the batteries on my vehicles and let me waste time on the computer while my wife watches her soap operas. It is a lot of work, but it is all the way it is because of my desire to live a sustainable and environmentally friendly lifestyle.

  • Trakar

    I consider appropriately manufactured supplements to be useful but largely unnecessary if you have access to natural sources. I disagree that there is anything wrong with chemically produced B12, which is fully absorbable and functions identically to natural B12 within the body. While I prefer to get much of my B12 as it is found in naturally occuring foods (primarily because there are a lot of other vital nutrients contained in those same foods), I know of no study indicating that chemically manufactured B12 is in anyway different or harmful as compared to natural B12, but would be interested in looking at any compelling references you care to share in support of your statements.

  • Trakar

    Is your objection to farmed meat based upon the idea that farming is always harmful to the animals, or that there is something about farm raised animals that makes them inferior and dangerous sources of food?

  • Trakar

    ” Rgaura is a denier of COVID, people should ignore these comments.”

    Just as important all of those who upvoted rgaura are infected with the same delusions.

  • Trakar

    “Respond to my comment in context (full sentence, not a partial one like you did)…”

    Construct your sentences to pithily address individual subjects.

  • Nylene13

    You are ignoring that eggs, milk and cheese can provide all the B-12 humans need.

    One can argue that eggs are meat, but they are just the potential of becoming an animal, not an actual animal.

    Isn’t cooking meat ‘artificial’? What other meat eating animals cook their meat?

    Do you eat your meat bloody and raw as carnivores do?

  • Nylene13

    As Jeff has not responded to your question, I believe that in a comment to me on this site, he said that hunting animals was the only way humans should get meat, as raising meat was exploiting the animals and bad for the environment.

  • rat doctor

    Ever had steak tartare? It is excellent.

  • Trakar

    Though farming is natural for many animals, including humans, I’ll let Jeff respond if he chooses to. Many of us only spend a limited amount of time, in dispersed intervals, throughout the day, online, …though I have spent more time the last few months, online, than is typical for me, at least for recreation, must be a consequence of the pandemic.

  • Nylene13

    You eat raw beef?
    That explains a lot.

  • Jeff

    I didn’t ignore eggs, I’ve discussed them several times with you, go back and read my posts. Dairy is totally unnatural crap and is unhealthy.

    As to raw meat, yes, I love sushi.

  • Jeff

    Anything chemically produced is bad for the environment and almost certainly bad for you too. Always better to get nutrients from natural sources, which means food, not supplements.

  • Jeff

    My objection is that agriculture is extremely environmentally and ecologically harmful, and animal agriculture is the worst of it in many ways. It’s also cruel to the animals, and wild meat is much healthier.

  • Jeff

    If you want to be environmentally friendly, stop farming animals, and stop the aquaculture. Those are extremely harmful activities and they are anti-Earth, not pro-environment.

  • Jeff

    That’s human hubris arrogant BS. Animals certainly do make choices, I’ve experienced many of them with horses and cats. I have no doubt that wild animals also make choices. But of course no predator would choose not to hunt and eat meat, that would be suicidal and insane. Humans who choose to avoid meat are maybe not quite insane, but there’s something wrong there.

    I’ll leave you with this, I’m not going to debate this infinitely: A Yaqui/Apache friend once said, you’ll never find indigenous people who don’t eat meat, because we don’t discriminate against plants. He’s quite right, as even western science figured out many decades ago that plants don’t want to be killed or even cut either.

  • Nylene13

    But we Humans MUST eat plants. And for many plants, their fruit being eaten is the way they spread their seed.

    Carnivores must eat meat. Not true for Humans.

  • Nylene13

    Dairy is not any more unnatural than humans killing animals for meat.

    Less, I would say.

    I love vegetarian sushi. Try it with Tofu.

  • Trakar

    As blanket statements, those are either bald faced lies, or grossly uninformed babblings.

  • zak1

    Did you see the People’s Party FAQ? They are insidiously blaming the Green Party for ballot access laws that are applied to all third parties – I understand that people have issues with the Green Party, and Socialist Alternative is a good example, where they air their concerns openly in their articles – but the People’s Party in contrast is evasive and underhanded on this topic, and their website FAQ language is blatantly dishonest in what they describe as the “problem” with the Greens

    I don’t think Amy Goodman lost her mind, as you put it – it looks like something very specific happened to Goodman that suddenly drove her away from the Greens while she’d been in the midst of promoting them – you’re right that this actually happened shortly before the election – Viggo Mortensen called Goodman out over this during an interview with Jill Stein, with Stein nodding in agreement

    I agree about Russiagate – but this doesn’t explain why Dore has been relentlessly deriding and insulting Hawkins throughout the whole campaign, even as Dore had been supporting the campaign of the Russiagating Sanders

    Regarding the issue about the environment – I don’t agree but I see what you’re saying – and I’m sure others share your concern – what I’m describing isn’t a matter of openly raising genuine concerns the way you are – I’m talking precisely about the censorship you mentioned earlier – I see these examples as part of it

  • Jeff

    Maybe you haven’t seen Jimmy Dore for a while, but he’s been calling Sanders a coward and a liar for some time now. His support for Sanders stopped months ago. Dore is totally fed up with the electoral system and is urging people to foment a revolution, with which I agree. But the biggest reason that I watch his podcasts is for information, because it’s one of the best sources of it.

    Here’s what the People’s Party FAQ says:

    The Green Party also has to start over with ballot access petition collection in most states every four years. It’s another reason that we might as well start over with a fresh and energetic new party. Because it has so few resources — an annual budget of about $300,000 and about three full-time staff equivalents — the Green Party spends all its energy getting ballot access and then has little left to run its campaigns. This means it’s stuck on a ballot access treadmill: running
    candidates who get one or two percent just to maintain ballot access and getting a reputation of being marginal in the process. It has been stuck in this cycle for so long that it no longer fights to win, but just to survive. We need a bold, decisive, and captivating party that resolves to become the next major party in America and ushers in a 21st-century progressive era.

    How is this blaming the Green Party for anything except maybe bad strategy? I’m not paying much attention to this party because I’m a Green and this party offers nothing I’m interested in, so maybe I don’t see the smears that you do. But I certainly don’t see any smears in the FAQ, just statements and attitudes with which I disagree.

    As to Amy Goodman, she’s turned into a whining melodramatic shill for the Democratic Party. Watch Democracy Now! from 10 or more years ago, then watch a current show. I can barely stand to listen to her, even when she’s presenting information in which I’m interested. And she now blathers on infinitely like she loves the sound of her own voice.

    I don’t understand your last paragraph. To what are you referring?

  • Jeff

    Neither. I was an environmental campaigner and an environmental attorney, and I’m a lifelong wilderness and wildlife advocate. You’re just upset because I pointed out that your lifestyle is very environmentally destructive.

  • rat doctor

    It was certainly natural to the Native Americans.

  • Nylene13

    I grew up by the Pacific Ocean. Even in my lifetime, I can remember when the returning wild salmon swimming up stream to spawn and die—were so many that I could not see the water for the endless salmon. They filled the rivers.

    Last season, an Indian Tribe along the Colombia River counted 150 returning wild salmon.

    They did not catch ANY, instead they did what they could to help the 150 wild salmon return upstream to spawn.

    If you want to live like the Ancient Native Americans, that is one thing. But commercial and sports hunting and fishing is quite another.

  • Nylene13

    So get your B12 from chicken eggs in your backyard, or from a neighbor who raises them.

    Problem solved.
    No need to kill for it.

  • rat doctor

    Regulated sport hunting has NEVER resulted in an extinction. In fact, hunters have done more to fund and work for conservation than any other group.

  • Nylene13

    Tell that to the wild salmon.

    Who has to run a gauntlet of Commercial Fishermen, Sports Fishermen, Indians and Dams.
    Not to mention Industrial Pollution.

  • Jeff

    No, all animal agriculture is harmful to the natural environment. Domestic chickens are not native, and you have to kill native plants and replace them with plants the chickens can eat. So you’ve displaced native plants and animals. That’s the harm, and ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

    And BTW, one could argue that eating eggs is killing potential animals. I don’t buy this when it comes to the abortion argument, but it’s biologically true.

  • rat doctor

    The wild salmon have nothing to do with sport hunters and sport fisheman are just about the very bottom of the list of things threatening them.

  • Nylene13

    No, the LEAST threat to the wild salmon would be the Native American Indians.

    And there are plenty of “sport fishermen” who hunt wild salmon in the Pacific Northwest.

    Their fancy fishing rods and RV’s and fishing boots and clothes show just how much they “need” the fish.

    You don’t know what you are talking about.

  • Nylene13

    “Potential” is not the same thing as killing.

    Sperm is also potential life.

    Would you make the claim that Men having Sperm emissions without the attempt to impregnate a Woman is killing human life?

    Same thing with eggs.

  • rat doctor

    I have no issue with regulated sport fishing. The license fees of those hunters and fishermen and women are what pay the bills fir conservation, not the feel-good Sierra clubbers.

  • Nylene13

    Yeah, those sports fishermen are conserving the wild salmon right out of existence.

  • rat doctor

    Again, Nylene, they are not the problem. Commercial fishing and habitat destruction are the driving forces in the decline with habitat destruction leading the way.

  • RickW

    Would you make the claim that Men having Sperm emissions without the attempt to impregnate a Woman is killing human life?
    Isn’t that the bedrock of the anti-abortion crowd, Nylene? No sex for pleasure – condoms therefore are a capital offense?
    From Monty Python’s Meaning of life:
    Every sperm is sacred
    Every sperm is great
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate
    Let the heathen spill theirs
    On the dusty ground
    God shall make them pay for
    Each sperm that can’t be found

  • Branford Perry

    Bravo Nylene for sticking to your guns and debating this complicated issue, loaded with human prejudices dating back perhaps hundreds of thousands of years and resultant habits—like, SOME animals are born to be killed and eaten, and that’s alright. Well, it’s not. Who says it? Where’s the moral dimension of this?

    We humans are “proud” to be the only moral entities in all of nature, yet when it comes of issues like this, which cry for an honest examination everyone chooses convenient custom and the palate. The fact that today there are numerous substitutes that in all possible aspects can replace even the feel and taste of animal tissue seems to be insufficient for this people to even try such alternatives. Yet, if they did, the global ecological problem we face would diminish dramatically, not to mention stopping massive, organised violence on sentient beings would improve our “karma” rap sheet.

  • Branford Perry

    Trakar, it’s about time we, as a species, started to think of OTHER creatures who also happen to inhabit this incredible planet, which our self-centeredness is so quickly destroying. The question of morality is one that MUST be considered in any decision about wha we eat or don’t. Even Buddha, and Mohammed advised against any UNNECESSARY cruelty to animals, the first as a man who abstained from any violence to animals, and the second as a prophet who also wished to minis universal offering. But obviously, the human palate has won that battle, to the perdition of billions of innocent creatures and our cavalier devastation of entire wld species, including fish stocks which are now plummeting around the globe, also as a result of our careless attitude toward the pollutants we dump into them without any second thoughts.

  • Branford Perry

    Exactly. Well said Nylene.

  • Branford Perry

    Trakar, you argument does not hold water. The idea that “rights” are won is a hugely complex philosophical issue, but here’s the rub showing you are SPECIESIST, that is human supremacist in your thinking—if I asked you what “rights” to life and be left undisturbed by adult humans do children and babies have, what you would say? That they have none because they have not fought and defended such rights? If you answer like that you get into hot water pretty quick, which exposes the fragility of your “judicial” and moral position. In fact leave the question of rights for lawyers and politicians, stick to moral law or principles. One of the oldest is: do no harm. Other rules like hat, like our “Thou shalt not kill” also reinforce the idea that killing is morally questionable or verboten. The fact that the Bible, essentially the beliefs and thinking of specifically one tribe, the Jews, says that humans “are entitled” (am paraphrasing) to do as they please with all non-human animals is a self-serving rule that is lacking any kind of logical justification, except cultural caprice. The same book, by the same people, renounce many other people—non-Jews—as open to massacre, too, does that Bible make sense then? If not, why reject that as an obvious crime and not the idea that the permission given by some very specific God (the God of the Israelites) is also NOT valid for all sentient creatures?

  • Branford Perry

    Widely accepted cultural norms are usually made into a law, including the defense of slavery as fully legal, regardless the suffering of its victims. But cultural norms change as human society itself changes. Change, in most things, is both inevitable and necessary. In antebellum USA we had laws that not only enshrined slavery as fully legal, but also a variety of laws designed to catch, punish, and expressly legally persecute anyone who helped a slave to escape its masters. Such laws are no longer around, why? Social change. Ditto with the treatment of women around the globe, including in so-called advanced societies,” such England, France, the US, etc. Treating a woman like a piece of property is still LEGAL in Saudi Arabia (KSA) and a number of other diehard conservative muslim countries, but that posture is now in retreat, and time will come, I hope soon, when the KSA and its fellow reactionary and malignant societies will finally be erased from civilized humanity. Mind you, I do NOT think that the freedom women enjoy in the West makes “the West” superior to any society, except perhaps in that regard. The West is riddled with hypocrites and criminals at the top who seed organized murder around the globe, so count me out of the “mutual admission society.” So yea, when it comes to how women are treated the KSA is worse than “the West”. But overall, both societies stink in moral terms.

  • Nylene13

    Thanks.

    I really think some people are addicted to eating meat.

    And maybe the thrill of the hunt.

    I make a special meat tasting No Meat Chili, and I say to the die hard meat eaters-
    “I put in some meat just for you”.

    They ALWAYS respond with comments like-
    “And SEE how much Better it tastes?”

    “See how much more Filling it is?”

    They can’t even tell the difference.

    I think eating meat is tied to some psychological issues-
    Memories of Childhood or being taught that meat eating and killing animals “makes you a man”.

    Those kinds of things.

    Our culture needs a makeover.

    New baby whale born in Puget Sound!!!
    That is who Needs the wild salmon.

  • Branford Perry

    Jeff, do be honest. You are speaking nonsense. And you remind me of the reasons why animal liberationists and “environmentalists” have never found a common ground to wage political campaigns. A/R folks, for all their defects and supposed “neuroses” are correct in refusing to eat animals as a matter of moral principle. Why cause UNNECESSARY suffering? As xylene says, we humans have a choice. Environmentalists, on the other hand, love those steps and burgers too much, and that’s that. However, that position is also unsustainable from the standpoint not of being blind to massive animal suffering, but, from the standpoint of being an honest environmentalist: animal meat industries such as CAFO installations are a HUGE burden on this planet, not just in greenhouse gases, but in the destruction wrought by this industry’s enormous consumption of needed soil and water, the bad medical repercussions due to overuse of antibiotics, the deforestation we see in both Brazil and Indonesia, for example, to make way to new farmlands to raise cattle and many other factors, all condemning animal meats to the ecologically indefensible category.

  • Nylene13

    This is what meat eaters refuse to address.

    The Huge Environmental Damage of Meat Eating.

    Some meat eaters argue that they hunt and kill their own meat.

    But that does not address the damage of Industry Meat Production, as you point out here.

  • Nylene13

    Men release millions of sperm each time.

    Only one or a few make it.

    So even having sex only to make a baby is killing sperm.

    Religion is crazy, but perhaps we need a new one-One that Holds the Earth Sacred.

  • RickW

    Druidry, sometimes termed Druidism, is a modern spiritual or religious movement that generally promotes harmony, connection, and reverence for the natural world. This commonly is extended to include respect for all beings, including the environment itself.

  • rat doctor

    Animal rights activists are neurotic.

  • rat doctor

    Speciesist is one of the most ridiculous terms out there. The only one phonier is carnist.

  • Nylene13

    Oh yes, I know about the Revivalist Druids. It started at Harvard I think- or some such college, in the 1960’s a few college students wanted to get out the mandatory religious requirement, and came up with becoming Druids.

    But it took off and became a serious religion.

    The Early Druids worshiped Trees. That makes sense to me.

    Especially here in Northern Nevada right now, with all the endless smoke and Forests burning….

  • Jeff

    Branford, do grow up and stop going off half-cocked when you have no idea what you’re talking about. Try actually reading and learning to comprehend what you read before ranting at people. Specifically here, read what I wrote. I advocate against farmed meat, what about that don’t you get? Or did you not read any of my posts except for the previous one, but felt that you had to spew your ignorance?

    And again, humans have no choice but to eat some sort of animal product, be unhealthy from lack of vitamin B-12, or take an artificial supplement. Reality is not going to change because it doesn’t fit what you think it should be.

  • Nylene13

    “Eating some sort of animal product”- is NOT the same thing as killing and eating meat.
    You know humans can get all the B-12 they need from chicken eggs and goats milk and cheese.

    Needing B12 does not justify killing and eating animals.

    You know this already from our discussions.

    And taking some B12 pills is no being deal either.

    Do you refuse to take penicillin because it is “artificial’?

  • RickW

    Thumb’s Up, Nylene! I had in mind the tree-worshipping Druids……the ones the English tried their darndest to wipe out, what with the English hatred and fear of trees and forests.

  • Nylene13

    Please see my comment regarding Jeffs response to yours, below.

  • Nylene13

    Whereas you are just neurotic, period.

  • zak1

    I know what Jimmy Dore’s been saying about Sanders since Bernie dropped out and turned into Biden’s attack dog – I’m talking about how Dore was excoriating Hawkins over Russiagate during the same time that he was supporting Sanders – my point is that Dore has been virulently applying a double standard

    Regarding the People’s Party – they say “the Green Party has to start over with ballot access … every four years” – this is true of EVERY third party – it would also be true of the People’s Party – but the fact that they don’t mention this makes it look like it’s the Greens’ fault, rather than a widespread policy

    – the way the People’s Party make their point in a vacuum here is what I’m saying strikes me as a dishonest and intentional distortion

    – in fact, this very point is an argument to support the Greens, who already have worked decades to establish ballot access throughout the country – instead of using these resources to start over

    Regarding Democracy Now, I will say I haven’t been watching Amy Goodman as much as I used to – I’m not talking about how much I do or don’t like her – I’m talking about something specific that happened that showed a sudden change in her behavior

    My point in the last paragraph is that progressive media that DemExiters follow have been maintaining a systematic blackout of the Green Party and the Hawkins/Walker campaign – the one established party that would be their most natural destination, the ONLY national ticket in 2020 that would warrant DemExit support

    – this progressive blackout is a campaign, not an accident – and we need outlets in the left media to call attention to this

  • rat doctor

    LOL.

  • Acleron

    And dangerous, to animals. In the UK they thought it a good idea to set fire to an animal research farm.

  • tomonthebay

    I used to be alert to the possibilities of violence against me when I was doing work at NCTR.

  • Acleron

    We were threatened by them. They sent us a list of those who were licenced to work on animals together with home addresses. We were checking underneath cars every morning for a few months but all that happened was a technician had his car daubed with paint.

  • Trakar

    If I don’t have the ability to stop HITSSA from eating my children, what I think or would prefer is largely irrelevant. Rights are limited to the choices and behaviors we can enforce, rights that are not enforceable are little more than wishful preferences.

  • Trakar

    If you actually look into it a bit deeper, I’m sure most here would object to what all the Druid respect for the “natural” world entails, and it certainly doesn’t include a vegan, pacifistic lifestyle …then again so much of modern new age spiritualism is based more on delusion and deception rather than the actual cultures from which they misappropriate their labels, that pacifistic vegan flower-children claiming to be druids probably doesn’t evoke the cognitive dissonance that it should.