What We Know So Far: Dispelling The Myths About COVID19

| Podcast

As we get close to two months of quarantine to stop the spread of COVID19 and the government has failed to put in place both public health infrastructure to effectively control the pandemic and economic support to see people through it financially, pressure is building to end it. In addition to the protests against the restrictions on movement and businesses, people are starting to question the rationale behind measures such as wearing masks, quarantining and vaccines. This is being fueled by a few people who are pushing unsubstantiated claims that are causing confusion. We speak with Dr. Andy Coates, a practicing physician in Albany, New York who also teaches evidence-based medicine, about what we know so far about the new SARS-CoV2 virus that is causing COVID19.

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Guest:

Dr. Andy Coates is a past president of Physicians for a National Health Program and an assistant professor of medicine and psychiatry at Albany Medical College. Board certified in internal medicine as well as hospice and palliative care medicine, Dr. Coates graduated from the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. Dr. Coates is a co-founder of the Capital District chapter of PNHP and founder of Single Payer New York. He previously served on the statewide executive board of the Public Employees Federation, AFL-CIO. He provides commentary on WAMC Northeast Public Radio.

Transcript in progress

  • 0040

    This article is about perpetuating the Covid myth not dispelling it ? Yet another exercise in herding the sheeple..Politics always trumps science in pragmatic , for profit America it appears ?

  • kevinzeese

    You dispel Covid falsehoods in almost every post you make. Covid is not the same as the annual flu, as is explained in the interview. Your falsehoods in these disqus comments to more to confuse and mislead people. Unacceptable.

  • 0040

    Your first sentence in response to my opinion is accurate . I do attempt to “dispel” the Covid falsehoods you are attempting to dispense ?

  • il corvo

    Margaret and/or Kevin, they are rolling out a vaccine quickly, where are you on mandatory vaccines? Between DARPA’s and Gates’s agenda a vaccine could be as detrimental to our health and freedom as the rolling out of 5G without public or medical input.

  • Alice X

    Four interesting titles in last two days (do a literal search of the titles should reveal links)

    Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks | ACS Nano

    Inside Trump’s coronavirus meltdown | Free to read | Financial Times

    Who is most likely to be infected with SARS-CoV-2? – The Lancet Infectious Diseases

    What the Coronavirus Does Inside the Body/ Anatomy of a Killer – DER SPIEGEL

  • 0040

    Dispel = doubt , so yes I do dispel ?

  • John R.

    I blocked 0040 a long time ago, unblocked him for a day, re-blocked again – permanently.

  • Alice X

    Around 56:00 Dr Coates talks about the prospects for a vaccine. The Ebola vaccine took five years and that was a record. For Covid-19 others have suggested the bare minimum of time to be one year, although obviously that is the record divided by five.

    As far as a mandatory vaccine, that’s an interesting line of thinking, but first would be the question of cost. This is a for profit culture. And there are the anti-vaxxers who do their thing no matter what.

    But Dr. Coates does touch upon some of this.

  • kevinzeese

    I will be surprised if a vaccine for COVID-19 is produced quickly. They have never created a coronavirus vaccine and Ebola took five years (and that was very fast). If they go to fast their are likely to be increased adverse side effects and less effectiveness.

    I don’t support mandatory vaccines. They should be made available at no cost but people should be able to decline for multiple reasons including religion and health.

  • iowapinko

    Very helpful to learn from the experience of a physician who has the perspective of an advocate for universal health care as well as front line experience treating Covid-19.

    Dr. Coates reinforces common sense understanding of a rational public health policy that is quixotically under attack by corporate servants and a variety allies of the U$ right wing.

    As a social work student, my classes often over-lapped with those of public health students. I quickly developed an alliance with the PH students because we shared an emphasis on the creation of safe, nurturing social environment.

    Quarantine is a strategic tool used to protect human beings from disease. It is not an authoritarian plot. It is the real world manifestation of the workers’ anthem, “An injury to one is an injury to all.”

  • Mensch59

    Since when is quarantining healthy people and treating workplaces like unsafe environments where contagions are easily spread “strategic tools used to protect human beings from disease”?
    I understand the principle “My right to swing my fist ends at your face.” But to extend this to “You have no right to get me sick” smells of authoritarian overreach. It’s a steep slippery slope into overt totalitarianism. (I assume that you’re already aware of “inverted totalitarianism” [Sheldon Wolin].)
    Why not extend that to “My right to pollute ends at your lungs. You have no right to use a motor vehicle with an ICE”?
    “My safety depends on you not breathing in public places and workplaces” is paranoia. Not “public health”. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/346f18878ddafdeb26a149d5a3f6f0dba8360a4f214660f657469c9182b17280.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fcbcc39f2c54ba2acd0e81dcbe6fda610782123668e8ff83147a13fc55310576.jpg

  • kevinzeese

    It is sad to see such ignorance about public health. The meat industry is one example that shows how failure to provide protection for workers leads to illness and death.

    As we wrote in our weekly news analysis. The choice is not either public health or an active economy, it is public health to have an active economy. The US has failed to put in place public health measures and is reopening the economy anyway. The result will be the spread of the virus and a spike in deaths. See https://popularresistance.org/choose-health-economy/

  • Mensch59

    It’s sad to see acquiescence to authoritarian and overt totalitarian social controls in the name of protecting public spaces and workplaces from people who breathe.
    What next, Kevin?
    Are you going to roll over for contact tracing? Are you going to roll over for forbidding work and travel for those who refuse a less-than-adequately-tested vaccine against an RNA virus?

    Again, what evidence do you have that the SARS-nCoV2 virus is so extremely deadly/lethal as to warrant quarantining the healthy? When in the history of medical science has quarantining the healthy EVER been warranted? What makes Covid-19 so (expletives deleted) special?

    Why not at least consider the possibility that this is a psyop established by fear-based propaganda? Try some critical thinking instead of surrendering to the evidence-free belief that quarantining healthy people is warranted.

  • PJF

    The only “ignorance about public health” being spread is by the hosts here. The meat industry is the best example you can come up with, the most dangerous industry for workers in the US? All we know of those deaths comes from the fear mongering media, who provide no details. It is not news that people die from working in those plants. The question is what did they die from. Today, all deaths are “Covid-related.”

    Dr. Coates repeats a lot of false claims, beginning with the alleged hospital capacity problem in NYC. If they lacked capacity, why were the Javits Convention Center and the Navy ship employed for hospital overflow never used nor needed? He claims that Covid is much worse than the flu, and it may be (although his arguments in this regard are conclusory and inaccurate), but this is not why so many people have died. Half the deaths worldwide have come out of so-called “care facilities” for the elderly and disabled, where the discarded are warehoused without care or medical treatment. If people cared about these populations, we would get resources to them and actually care for them, instead of killing them on respirators. But you tell us that social isolation and mass economic distress is the proper “public health response.”

    I know we all decide which “experts” we believe, but the arrogance of these posts, and the disrespectful handling of criticism here, is really unacceptable. I can give you a dozen or more experts far more qualified than Dr. Coates who will disagree with all that he says, and with your advocacy of contact tracing. It won’t convince you, but I am not calling you ignorant for your holding to your viewpoint. On the other hand, I will be tagged with the CIA term, “conspiracy theorist,” a phrase thrown around as if it were meaningful. You both know better than that.

  • 0040

    Another free speech advocate that assumes disagreeing with him or her is a crime . Ain’t America grand ?

  • 0040

    A somewhat working vaccine must be produced quickly before this flu peters out , in which case the wealthy who are the target market won’t buy it. As with Mr Gates computer systems he give away nothing . His vaccine will use the same business model.

  • iowapinko

    You are the one who has slid down the slope and into the muck.

    Quarantine is a tool used to block the spread of disease. It is a readily comprehensible strategy to those who value the preciousness of human life.

    I have no intention of wasting time playing games, Mensch. We are experiencing a multi-faceted crisis.

  • Starfire

    Well said.

  • No. It is freakishly gross. You are crying for an intervention.

  • Well said.

  • Starfire

    I told you to go away..

  • I will call you and your moronics if i see dangerous crap posted publicly. Block me if you want.

  • Mensch59

    Again, when have healthy people EVER been quarantined as a preventative? EVER!

  • Starfire

    Maybe you could get a job as Youtube censor ;-D

  • Mensch59

    Lol.

  • Nah. You and your creepy boyfriend need to be confronted on your dangerous propaganda.

    You freaks are going to get people killed.

  • 0040

    Mr Gates while market distilled water as vaccine if he can buy enough regulators and politicians. and million of his worshipers will buy it.

  • 0040

    Vaccinations were once mandatory across America, from elementary schools to the military. A benchmark of American equality. They were free and effective . Now many of them are toxic and sold for profit without proper testing , while many of the components are made in 3rd world aluminum sheds without inspection, and streamed into European and American production facilities, to maximize profits.

  • Jon

    Thank you for this vital support Kevin! Mandatory vaccines violate BOTH of medical ethics central premises: “First, do no harm” (and there is MUCH evidence of harm done by some vaccines to some people, especially babies!) the other is informed consent. Down with medical fascism!

  • Margaret Flowers

    Infectious diseases that are prevented by vaccines do a lot of harm to children, especially infants. When did public health become fascism?

  • Margaret Flowers

    We did not get a lot of nutrition training in medical school but fortunately a friend loaned me Dr. Alan Gaby”s “Nutritional Medicine,” which I highly recommend. It would be great if everyone had access to healthy food and supplements but unfortunately many, including those who are most vulnerable don’t.

  • Margaret Flowers

    Quarantining healthy people during pandemics has been around for a thousand years.

  • Margaret Flowers

    Contact tracing is a public health tool that is used routinely for many infectious diseases. It’s what we do to control the spread of infections and to make people aware when they may have been exposed. The issue with SARS-CoV2 is that it is highly communicable and it’s new, which means none of us have prior immunity to it and we don’t know a lot about it. We are learning a lot about it quickly and what we are learning is very concerning – it’s impacts on the lungs, heart, GI tract, kidneys and vascular system as well as it looks like it may be connected to a Kawasaki disease-like illness in children.

  • Collectivist

    Hey, I hear you & Kevin, on Forward Radio, in Louisville, Ky, every week.

    Keep up the good work.

  • Collectivist

    Wow.
    How did it come to this?

  • Collectivist

    Absolutely

  • Collectivist

    Gravedigger not enough to keep you . . .dizzy.

  • sabelmouse

    it’s been in the works for a while 😉

  • sabelmouse

    so many fails in that statement.

  • sabelmouse

    it’s a very polite pandemic. everybody dies quietly behind closed hospital doors, no bodies on the street.

  • Mensch59

    That’s a claim devoid of evidence.
    Care to shoulder the onus?

  • Starfire

    Well, I had to give up. This comment by ‘Blubber’ on the OffG says it best: “We
    passed the point of facts making a difference several weeks ago. More facts aren’t going to wake people up – it’s the equivalent of speaking English louder and slower when you’re in a non English speaking country hoping that the waiter will magically understand what your saying if you raise the volume.
    We need a different approach because the power crazed people running the show aren’t about to let facts get in the way when the public have so willingly capitulated without them.”

  • Collectivist

    So, now you’re ready to face the facts, Star?

  • Mensch59

    We are learning a lot about [the SARS-nCoV 2 virus] quickly and what we are learning is very concerning – it’s (sic) impacts on the lungs, heart, GI tract, kidneys and vascular system as well as it looks like it may be connected to a Kawasaki disease-like illness in children.

    Sounds like a lot of fear-based propaganda to me.
    On May 11th, Chris Whitty – the UK’s Chief Medical Officer – confirmed at the Downing Street Corona Briefing that, to most people, the coronavirus is entirely harmless. Most people will never get infected. Most of the people who get infected by this virus won’t ever experience symptoms. Most of the people who experience symptoms won’t need medical care. Most of the people who need medical care won’t be need emergency or critical care. Even the tiny percentage of people who DO need critical care will survive, regardless of risk factors or medical history.

    It seems incredibly strange to me that people in your position aren’t doing a little bit more digging instead of swallowing this public health scare hook, line, and sinker. It’s like you have become true believers that the ruling class doesn’t have an agenda in terms of how to utilize this virus for the purposes of that class.

    RE contact tracing: so you will accept mass surveillance in the name of public health. Interesting.

  • Starfire

    The fact that you and your gang act like a bunch of abusive thugs and bullies, and are not interested in honest dialogue? Yep. I had to face that. Disappointed in the newbie, though. Have a nice day, eh?

  • Mensch59

    I’m wondering if you and those who share your fear of the SARS-nCoV2 virus will surrender the constitutional right to assemble as a temporary measure to slow the spread of Covid.
    All of our hard-won civil liberties can easily be suspended in the name of enforcing a quarantine of healthy people.
    I have to wonder if you and K. Zeese are thinking your position through thoroughly.

    Are you paying any attention at all to reports such as this? “A Republican state representative asked prosecutors to bring criminal charges against Colorado’s top public health official Thursday, claiming that she illegally falsified death records to inflate COVID-19 death totals… Colorado now says 878, not 1150, have died of Covid in the state.”

    To be clear, I’m not a Republican. I don’t even reside in the USA. I’m attempting to see my way clear past the fear-based propaganda.

  • JohnDoe00

    It wasn’t all too many years ago that calling yourself a leftist didn’t come without significant risk. Although hardly holding the stigma and danger of the decades before, even into the 1980’s when I joined the CPUSA, labels like “Commie” and “Red” continued to be pejoratives and came with the potential for real time costs. For well beyond a century these costs included unemployment, increased surveillance, harassment, incarceration, deportation – and even death.

    Long before the faceless, nameless, relative anonymity of the internet came along (and by necessity “John Smith” became JohnDoe00), only the most emboldened would make such pronouncements about themselves. And such an accusation from another meant but one thing: a potential threat. Ever mindful of these risks, many of yesterday’s leftists employed hushed tones and coded passwords for their political persuasions. Not unlike abolition era safe houses, Prohibition Speakeasies and pre-Stonewall gay bars, comrades organized in secrecy knowing full well the potential costs their attendance and political affiliations brought with it.

    Fast forward to 2020. A short hundred years after the Palmer Raids and the leftism that got Big Bill Haywood and Emma Goldman deported, and fifty years after leftism got Malcolm X, MLK and Fred Hampton murdered, the threats and adversity once conjured in the capitalist’s mind at the mention of the word “leftist” has In many cases now been safely supplanted by erroneous Republican rhetoric directed at liberals and Democrats, a go-along-to-get-along, hyphenated Progressivism – and of course, the cooptation here in the cybersphere by libertarians and self-described anarchists of every stripe. “Leftists” are it seems now everywhere – and yet nowhere to be found.

    The connotations that once brought both doubt and comradery to many have been replaced by the relative safety and cover of anonymity; an anonymity that allows for the most wildly provocative assertions but little in the way of authenticity or solidarity of purpose. No longer is calling oneself a leftist necessarily a challenge to the capitalist order of things. Nor does a hostile accusation of such elicit the fear many of our departed comrades knew only too well. Its contemporary usage finds “leftist” as apt to deliver working-class confusion as it does capitalist fear. This, I would offer, is hardly coincidental.

    Here online, “leftist” can and does mean virtually anything. We have alleged anti-war leftists calling for common cause with the gun-toting camouflaged and MAGA hatted. Others that discard capitalist overuse in favor of cries of “overpopulation.” We have others who have long abandoned class struggle and analysis in favor of conspiracy-theories so thickened with sophomoric slogans and reactionary rhetoric that old J. Edgar Hoover himself couldn’t have devised better. Various versions of online leftism now openly proclaim Covid-19 to be a cover-up and “Fauci and WHO aren’t to be trusted” and “It’s a ‘Plandemic’ – I ain’t wearing no mask.” “Freedom…” and so on. And all of it commandeered under a vague banner of leftism that, if mentioned at all, derides Marxist application as being from another time and era. “Rigid” legitimate Marxists are sometimes called. Or even more bizarrely, “Democrats.”

    The old brick and mortar meeting halls have long been shuttered. And the old communities and cultures that met in them, diced up, muted, marginalized and rendered safe(er) for capitalism by years of complacency, propaganda – and the internet. Being a leftist, once a potentially dangerous moniker that in a word described precisely where you stood at least in relation to capitalism, has now been neutered by misnomer, confusion and overuse. Like Guliani’s Times Square, “leftist” and “socialist” have been made as family friendly and safe as Disneyland or a midnight stroll in Central Park. And as nebulous as the politics of Bernie Sanders. With their Adulterated, watered down, conflated and bastardized use of the word, internet “leftists” are now littered across the cybersphere “yeah butting” and “what abouting” everything from racism to Covid to climate change to the presidency of Donald Trump.

    To be clear, the old dangers and hostilities associated with being a leftist are hardly vanquished. If anyone or anything ever successfully poses a legitimate threat to either capitalist infrastructure or its players the harshest measures available are never too awfully far beyond the realm. In the meantime, the capitalist appears perfectly happy seeing the language of faceless spooks do the work their police and military don’t otherwise have to.

  • Starfire
  • Mensch59

    I’m disappointed in more than a few people I used to respect as clear-headed & rational thinkers.

  • sabelmouse

    if people won’t even look at data or stop to think, what can one do?

  • 2020Vision

    kawasaki’s been around for a while and linked to vaccines.

  • Starfire

    sadly, nothing..

  • kevinzeese

    This virus is one that spreads easily and is spread by people who do not show any symptoms. As a result people who are exposed need to self-quarantine. That is why workplaces, restaurants and movies etc. are closed. We need to be able to test and track and isolate those who have been exposed in order to reopen the economy safely.

  • kevinzeese

    I can’t tell the source of that chart or the time period it covers. Sweden now leads Europe in per capita deaths so it is obvious that it is outdated. Sweden is at 380 per million and the US is at 284 per million.

  • Mensch59

    I’ve never even heard of Kawasaki disease and the allegation that the SARS-nCoV-2 viral infection could be responsible for an uptick in the number of cases of Kawasaki disease.
    Seems like the SARS-nCoV-2 virus is being blamed for a lot of illnesses.
    There were 228 million cases of malaria worldwide in 2018, and 405,000 deaths, mostly of African children. Maybe now a good portion of those deaths will be called “Covid-related” deaths.
    1.5 million people died of TB in 2018 (including 251,000 with HIV). India has the largest total number of cases, followed by China, Indonesia, the Philippines, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh and South Africa.
    Maybe now a good portion of those deaths will be called “Covid-related” deaths.

  • kevinzeese

    I am advocating for testing and tracing and isolating people who have been exposed. Until these basic public health measures are put in place we are going to be taking risks going to work and reopening the economy. This are pretty basic public health approaches that need to be taken or we will have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of more deaths.

    I could also point to transit workers, food service providers, fruit growers and other sectors of the economy. The lack of safety is one reason why there have been over 200 wildcat strikes in the US since March. See https://paydayreport.com/covid-19-strike-wave-interactive-map/

  • kevinzeese

    Intervention or mass death. I choose public health interventions.

  • kevinzeese

    The UK along with the US and Sweden are among the worse in handling the virus.

    The point is that many people have a mild or no reaction but they are still contagious. That is why people who are exposed need to stay home and not expose others — even if they have no symptoms.

  • That is the ONLY choice. These people are the worst sociopaths – so self righteous and willing to put others at risk for their comfort. Awful awful stuff.

  • kevinzeese

    We are still planning and organizing protests. People are finding ways to get their political views across despite the pandemic.

    A lot of those Republican attacks are BS. Because the US does not have sufficient testing people are dying with obvious COVID symptoms but have not tested positive. Doctors can determine they had COVID and dies as a result from examining the patient and their histories. Of course, those should be reported as COVID deaths. Republicans want to reduce deaths because this is an election year and hundreds of thousands of deaths by October will underine their reelection.

    I am more concerned about reports like we saw in Florida where someone responsible for this data refused to minimize COVID disease and death and was fired. As well as numerous reports that COVID deaths are significantly undercounted.

  • kevinzeese

    The vaccine for polio was not mandatory but it was widely used and stamped out polio.

  • kevinzeese

    Corruption of the FDA and government more generally is a serious problem with drug approvals and development. We need to nationalize the pharmaceutical industry so it serves the needs of healthcare and the public and not the profits of investors.

  • kevinzeese

    The meat industry, fruit industry, transit workers, food service providers, police, doctors, nurses — employees in all these sectors have had deaths. You are closing your eyes to obvious realities in order to minimize a virus that has so far killed almost 100,000 people. How many deaths do you need before you accept the truth that this is a dangerous and serious virus?

  • kevinzeese

    Contact tracing is a common public health practice when it comes to pandemics. What is the point? Until we have widespread testing, with follow up to trace who has been in contact with those exposed to the virus, and self-quarantining of those exposed, the US will see tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of deaths. We need this because the virus spreads by people who are exposed but do not have symptoms. So, it is essential to do what we can to figure out who could be a carrier and may spread the virus.

    We can reopen the economy if we put these public health measures in place. If we do not do so than reopening the economy will result in many people dying.

  • Wandering Hillbilly

    “Power crazed people running the show aren’t about to let facts get in the way”
    Because facts aren’t good for the bottom line.

  • Mensch59

    As a result people who are exposed need to self-quarantine.

    That’s really crappy reasoning. If this is a highly contagious novel virus, everyone will eventually get exposed. Everyone will have multiple exposures. The virus could mutate creating a SARS-nCoV-3 virus, starting a whole new wave of exposures with some illusory “need” to self-isolate, create unemployment & other devastating social disruptions, and new rounds of contact tracing. Then governments will be ordering multiple “social distancing” measures. Over what? On May 11th, Chris Whitty – the UK’s Chief Medical Officer – confirmed at the Downing Street Corona Briefing that, to most people, the coronavirus is entirely harmless. Most people will never get infected. Most of the people who get infected by this virus won’t ever experience symptoms. Most of the people who experience symptoms won’t need medical care. Most of the people who need medical care won’t be need emergency or critical care. Even the tiny percentage of people who DO need critical care will survive, regardless of risk factors or medical history.

  • Mensch59

    Doctors can determine they had COVID and dies (sic) as a result from examining the patient and their histories.

    Except that is not being done. This “determination” is a fantasy if you take the time to actually research Covid-related causes of death skeptically instead of with pseudo-skepticism or with the confidence in what governments want you to believe. Maybe you have full confidence in yourself that it’s impossible for you to be getting conned.

    You already acknowledge that deaths are not being properly counted, but you have a bias that deaths are being undercounted. I’m more interested in your biases (which I attribute to fear-based propaganda) & your pseudo-skepticism than unquestioning pronouncements like “Of course, those should be reported as COVID deaths.”

  • Mensch59

    The USA total case # per 1 million population is 4767, while Sweden’s is 3124. And that’s with Sweden NOT doing a very good job protecting nursing home residents — which could result in a higher morality rate.
    The bottom line is that Sweden’s healthcare system wasn’t overwhelmed like the fake models suggested if Sweden didn’t lockdown.

  • 0040

    When all are corrupt by definition changing the players in the game currently called neo-liberal capitalism aka moral socialism has been done and changed nothing. I f anything things grew worse more quickly domestically under the likes of Bill Clinton and Obomber . Legions of poor white kids, and black and brown children died under their gentle administrations. While those who rule today were immunized for the crimes they were committing.

  • 0040

    When Milton Friedman’s economic vision was adopted by Ronny Reagan circa 1980 ? The medical profession became a business as the GI Bill and VA were also being gutted as I recall. Chomsky’s linguistic nightmares were all being realized. The great communicator had arrived , successfully selling a bucket of shit as a magic elixir .

  • blessthebeasts

    Great comment. I’m afraid there are going to be even more people with diabetes, obesity and compromised immune systems as a result of staying home and eating more crap to comfort one’s self. It’s a vicious cycle and it’s intentional. The importance of diet is hardly ever mentioned in these discussions and it’s something we have a lot of control over. Every grocery store has bags of beans, brown rice, lentils, etc. that are super cheap and feed alot of people. Add vegetables and fruit, even frozen if fresh are not available, and you are on the road to a much healthier life.

  • 0040

    When I was inoculated for polio and several other deadly diseases that were killing far more people than Corona-virus yearly, despite the much smaller population, in grade school in the 1950s it certainly was mandatory. If not by government edict then certainly as a cultural requirement of good citizenship. To refuse inoculations made one dangerously insane in the eyes of the public and compulsory inoculation was inevitable.

  • 0040

    Not reality based choices , since Corona-virus is a panic-demic and at worst a mild and rarely fatal flu. When I see bodies lying dead in the streets as my granny from Glasgow did circa 1919 and the economy stops because their is no one is well enough to work , I would support public health intervention. People have bee told to stay away from work aka laid off, and hospitals are at less than 60% capacity in most large centers ? Where are the bodies?

  • 0040

    We are all aware that contact tracing won’t stop there? It is a tool of increasing tyranny , that you are hectoring for ?

  • blessthebeasts

    Didn’t they teach the famous quote by Hippocrates?
    “Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food”?

  • 0040

    I would agree if this panic-demic was real , but increasingly it is becoming obvious that it is not. Cut your losses jump off that bandwagon before its insane power mad drivers crash and blame starts to attach scapegoats will be needed.

  • 0040

    This is not a pandemic its a panic-demic, of the never let a perceived crisis go to waste genre so loved by despotic regimes globally.

  • 0040

    If most of show no symptoms explain to me slowly why its a danger and life as we knew it is over ?

  • kevinzeese

    As usual your posts are not based in reality. We are approaching 100,000 deaths since March. That is nothing like the seasonal flu. How many deaths will it take before you admit you are wrong and that this is a serious pandemic.?

  • kevinzeese

    How many deaths before you recognize it is realy? !00,000 deaths in three months is not enough? The seasonal flu has never come close to that.

  • 0040

    Body count in this crisis has become Vietnam like , pick a side pick a number! More likely this panic will subside and and be thrown down the memory hole by all sides , when the next big crisis arrives . its the American way , now please donate to our cause ?

  • 0040

    In fact deaths in hospitals are down ? If people are dying they are doing it at home.

  • 0040

    Your taken for granted view of the panic-demic as being a pandemic tells me you are a fraud and simply part of the the big middle who abhors conflict another faux dissident who prefers to talk in the past tense as do I. .

  • 0040

    At this point it seems likely that the number of deaths caused by this particular virus will never be known. Reputations and profits are at risk now.

  • 0040

    It is the seasonal flu and it is now over !

  • 0040

    Almost 7000 folks die in America daily ? Don’t Fear The Reaper comes to mind.

  • JohnDoe00

    Stuck, stilted and perpetually halfcocked, 00, I’ve yet to see you complete even one coherent thought.

  • kevinzeese

    We had record new cases in Maryland today. It is not over.

  • Collectivist

    “I am more concerned about reports like we saw in Florida where someone responsible for this data refused to minimize COVID disease and death and was fired. As well as numerous reports that COVID deaths are significantly undercounted.”

    Me too.

  • PJF

    Access to which “testing”? The PCR that tests for all corona viruses, with an astoundingly high false positive rate? Or the antibody test, which is even less specific and more useless? “People who are exposed” is millions of people, most of whom have been quarantined for months already. You can keep repeating this, but it does not become less fictitious. There is no minimally accurate test, setting aside the fact that the Covid-19 virus itself has never been isolated. These are fictions built upon fictions.

    More than 102,000 Americans died of the flu over four months in 2017-18. Yes, this is like the flu, maybe more infectious but not much, and no more deadly. In honest moments, Dr. Fauci has himself admitted as such. (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe20023): “[T]he overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%”

  • Margaret Flowers

    I am talking to health professionals treating COVID19 patients as well as following the literature. COVID19 has a higher case fatality rate than the flu and causes ultiorgan system disease. We use contact tracing every day in the US for a variety of infectious diseases. It’s a basic tool. It’s true that most people will recover but with what longterm sequelae? We are still learning. And we are seeing deaths in healthy adults and children.

  • Geez man – well said.

    The appropriation of leftist language by the right, disappearance of class or material analysis in favor of whatever form of confusion the intellectualizers pigeonhole us into as they force all discussion to the right… and then the ready hot hostility when anyone dares to discuss class – is too obviously right wing agenda driven.

    We are called “rigid”, “gang”, “clique” or “tribe” when we dare to invoke class struggle or the causative centrality of capitalism in human suffering.

    Faceless spooks indeed doing the work of the Pinkertons and police in attempting to silence our voices. We can’t let ’em do it.

  • Margaret Flowers

    I have not found any studies linking KD to vaccines but it is thought to be associated with common viruses including coronaviruses. See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929664614000035

    This was a prospective study to investigate the association of common viruses with Kawasaki disease. We found that cases of KD frequently had a cough (69%), rhinorrhea (58%), and diarrhea (51%) in addition to the typical symptoms of KD; several common respiratory viruses were also more frequently detected in cases of KD than in the control children. We propose that heterogeneous infectious agents, such as common viruses found in our study, may trigger Kawasaki disease in young children with certain genetic backgrounds or susceptibility.

  • you started off with a valid point that should be the focus of attention; that is how the private for profit healthcare system was ill equipped to protect us from pandemic. The natural conclusion to draw is that we need a public healthcare system and need to demand that.

    All states are currently risking public health by “opening’ up before any measures have been taken to address the continually escalating public health crisis – likely negating any gains we might have made from sheltering in place. Yes, these decisions that risk public health are indeed a fustercluck.

  • Margaret Flowers

    I have diagnosed and treated patients with KD. It is thought to be associated with viral infections including coronaviruses. See my comment linking to a study above.

  • Margaret Flowers

    We talk about it in the radio show. Did you listen to it?

  • Mensch59

    And we are seeing deaths in healthy adults and children.

    As the public does with a novel influenza virus. Maybe the case fatality rate is higher with this novel coronavirus compared to seasonal flu (to which the population has developed antibodies) but a lower rate with novel influenza viruses. The point is that past influenza pandemics (i.e. the Asian flu of 1957 & the Hong Kong flu of 1968) caused by novel influenza viruses didn’t cause the amount of social disruption that we’re experiencing with Covid. Doesn’t that make you slightly suspicious? It doesn’t seem like you and K. Zeese are voicing any suspicions at all regarding MSM reporting.
    This is especially troubling in the context of governments historically lying (e.g. Saddam Hussein was WMD’s) and the ruling elite utilizing crises to consolidate power by imposing overt totalitarian social controls (e.g. the Patriot Act)?
    Are you really so naive that you cannot conceive of the rulers manipulating public fear about a new virus?

  • Margaret Flowers

    The PCR test looks for sequences that are specific to SARS-CoV2.

    It looks like false negatives are more of a problem with the current tests, which is why it is important to use clinical criteria and other diagnostic methods such as chest xrays or CT scans of the lungs.

    See: https://asm.org/Articles/2020/April/False-Negatives-and-Reinfections-the-Challenges-of

  • Margaret Flowers

    Please do give these “more qualified experts.” I have tremendous respect for Dr. Coates as a clinician and a scholar.

  • Mensch59

    I didn’t hear your radio show where you provided evidence for your statement “Quarantining healthy people during pandemics has been around for a thousand years.”
    Do you have a transcript?

  • Mensch59

    That is why people who are exposed need to stay home and not expose others…

    That’s fear-based, i.e. irrational. We all will be exposed. The doomsday prognostications didn’t come to pass.

    It’s an insane public policy to protect public spaces and workplaces from people who breathe.

  • Mensch59

    “No one knows what causes Kawasaki disease, but scientists don’t believe the disease is contagious from person to person. A number of theories link the disease to bacteria, viruses or other environmental factors, but none has been proved. Certain genes may make your child more likely to get Kawasaki disease” (Kawasaki disease – Symptoms and causes – Mayo Clinic).
    So what percentage of these cases are “thought to” be caused by various coronaviruses and “thought to” by whom?

    Do you have actual numbers of excess KD cases diagnosed since the spread of the SARS-nCoV2 virus became global?

  • 0040

    Fudging stats will go on as long as allowed in the hope that a second wave can be conjured up by believers in this nonsense ? I read an Onion like report of a fellow hit by a bus and as he died he was tested positive for Corona-virus and was added to that death toll, very reminiscent of how we fluff up our body-counts in our various wars .

  • Jeff

    The only short-term Band-Aid choices are to just allow the pandemic to run its course or to contain the virus as much as possible by testing everyone, and quarantining those who test positive while also contact tracing them and testing those with whom they’ve had contact, again quarantining & contact tracing those who test positive, etc. If you want to contain the virus as much as possible with the latter, then it must be done robustly and with no exceptions. The world economy could have been shut down with no mortgage, rent, water, or utility bills allowed to be collected, and the governments could have subsidized farmers and the food supply chain to deliver food to everyone. Of course in a world that worships money, this didn’t get done.

    In order to stop zoonotic disease pandemics going forward, the only moral and effective solutions are to stop confining animals for food (eat wild meat, not farmed meat) and to stop all of this ridiculous unnatural industrial travel.

    Those are facts, not my opinions. I have no opinion on whether to allow the virus to run its course or to attempt to contain it as much as possible — my priorities are the Earth and everything that lives here, not humans alone — but if you want to argue or discuss, the only issues are which course to take. As the more honest scientists say, the physical world and its laws don’t give a damn what you think about them, they exist nonetheless.

  • Jeff

    It’s not “fascism,” people ignorantly and incorrectly use that term all the time for everything they don’t like. But it is authoritarian & tyrannical, and immorally so. How do people who are not vaccinated harm you if you get the vaccine? It’s none of your or anyone else’s business if people choose not to be vaccinated, and no one should be forced to put anything into their bodies that they don’t want. It’s only because modern humans are so disconnected from the natural world and living so unnaturally that they can’t understand this crystal clear and indisputable concept.

  • SteelPirate

    Damn good man…

  • Jeff

    It would have been far more helpful to hear from true experts, who are scientists, not doctors, and on this subject are the top epidemiologists. Furthermore, without exploring the roots of zoonotic diseases and advocating elimination of the practices of confining animals and destroying native ecosystems, all of this is just dealing with symptoms of symptoms instead of with the cause of the problem.

    I suggest reading and/or listening to Michele Barry, a true expert in pandemic diseases who also care about the health of the planet, not just humans, as she put it.

  • Collectivist

    That’s an excellent way to approach it.

  • SteelPirate

    Do not ever forget that liberalism, in all its forms, IS a right-wing anti-leftist agenda also. Liberals and the right-wing barbarians are united in promoting business as usual in one form or another. They just haven’t different ideas on how to run the capitalist plantation. The narrative that liberals/progressives are the left is a very convenient one for the owners. When the shit hits the fan, they will side with the ruling class and the owners every time, and attack and marginalize leftists into oblivion. This below is not just a slogan. It’s historical reality…

    “In every political community there are varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times. Ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally.”

    -Phil Ochs-

    The biggest gaslight of all NB, is disaffected “radical liberals” playing the role of “radical leftists”, all the while attacking leftists in a variety of ways. Much of what you see out here is precisely that.

  • Collectivist

    Still OVER, large parts of the Earth.

    Remember the Earth?

    The seamless atmosphere?
    The biosphere.

  • JohnDoe00

    Thx. Don’t know about you, SP but the things on my mind these days very rarely fit into anyone’s comment threads.

  • 0040

    I do recall that one type of corona-virus a few years back was transmitted by intercontinental geese flying from Asia to North America and points south without the Bill Gates health visa. That has been fixed ?

  • SteelPirate

    F##k it. Shove em in there anyway man. Some damn good clarity there for any occasion or comment thread.

  • kevinzeese

    And, if you are exposed you should stay home or when you go out be very careful, i.e. masks and keep your distance from people. This pandemic can be defeated but only if we take it seriously.

  • dopfa

    I wish the interventions including making sure everyone has adequate supplements and healthy food. Trillions to corporations, pittance to the people. They’re even considering cutting Social Security, or using it to pay back some of the stimulus checks, and cutting food stamps at a time when they should be handing out food stamps like they hand out trillions to the 1%. At the rate of 32 million dollars and hour, one week of not bombing the crap out of the planet would go a long way in the feed-the-people department. Thirty two million an hour for war. I have a difficult time believing our corporate government gives a rat’s ass about the health of We the People.
    But honestly, I don’t know what to believe. Things are always complex when it comes to a corporately owned and operated government. Believing it ever has my best interest at heart would be taking a leap of faith I can’t make myself do after watching it destroy so many lives in my 66 years on Earth, ya know?! They’re increasing the already massively increased domestic military presence to “combat” the virus. Scary indeed. The DHS has had trillions pumped into its weapons coffer for two decades now. With the NDAA and other “legal” shenanigans essentially neutering posse comitatus, the military can now be used against We the People “for their own protection.” Just sayin’…

  • dopfa

    Isn’t the test they’re using 80% inaccurate? False negatives and positives galore.
    Like I said – I don’t know what to believe. I do know that I’m erring on the side of caution and keeping my 91 year old mom at home, and only going myself out to get groceries.

  • tomonthebay

    The fails are in your comments, Sabel. Margaret is 100% correct.

  • tomonthebay

    You might try looking at data and thinking. So far, there is no evidence you ever have (or are capable of doing so).

  • 0040

    As Bishop Berkeley proved using logic several hundred years ago , reality is subjective. Even today impossible to refute decisively.

  • 0040

    Thought to be ! May !! destroys your premise? Offering an association or effect sans proof is not science , it is politics?

  • 0040

    Your second sentence is misleading What you call Covid appears to be hard on the elderly and other demographics with compromised health , but is not as deadly as some of the other flu events of the last decade to the vast majority. Until there are bodies in the streets and many are too sick to work . You have no right to invoke the tyrannical measures you are advocating for. You exceed your authority and the limits of your chosen discipline here. In service to what ? Interventionism which has destroyed America abroad and now it will be implemented internally with horrendous results.

  • Mensch59

    It’s irrational to take “exposure” seriously though, Kevin. Multiple official sources admit the virus is asymptomatic or mild in the majority of cases. Everybody’s susceptible to exposure from asymptomatic people. I’m not going to be phobic — i.e. be so hyper vigilant about breathing and being breathed on when in a public space or a workplace that I wear a mask & expect others to mask and stay two meters apart from everyone & expect others to stay two meters away from me — about a virus and treat everyone like they’re potentially carrying a deadly contagion. It’s both anti-social and inhuman. Just because the ruling class is sociopathic, I’m not going to allow them to turn me into a sociopath.

    From the beginning of this crisis we have been pointing out that there are two mutually contradictory messages at the heart of the covid19 rollout, and, just as Orwell describes in 1984, a major point of the exercise seems to be to get people to believe both at the same time (emphasis in original throughout).

    1. ‘BE AFRAID…’
    The first message is that covid19 is terrifying, unique, an existential threat to the human race.

    This message is never sourced to much fact, because the facts about the virus don’t really support it. If it cites anything solid it’s the appallingly sloppy and discredited Imperial computer model, or some generic research into the pathology of severe infections or rare viral syndromes, which it tries to spin as being unique to covid19, even though it is not. But mostly it doesn’t cite anything at all. Or really claim anything at all.

    It just tells people to be afraid. Very afraid. Of death, of uncertainty, of the ‘virus’, of other people, of ‘fake news’.

    The fear being encouraged is not rooted in facts, and is therefore impervious to them.

    2. ‘THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF…’
    The second message is that covid19 is actually pretty harmless and no big deal.

    This message is rooted in a great deal of fact, because, as we have been pointing out since day one, pretty much all the data coming out about this virus supports exactly this conclusion.

    No official body has ever denied this, and most of them readily admit it. Regularly and unambiguously.

    From the article highlighting the video “WATCH: UK Chief Medic confirms (again) covid19 harmless to vast majority” by Catte Black

    It seems to me that you and Margaret want to participate in the incentivisation of fear and the confusion over being both afraid and unafraid simultaneously.

  • Mensch59

    Do not ever forget that liberalism, in all its forms, IS a right-wing anti-leftist agenda also.

    False. Or rather only true from an illiberal identitarian position — understanding that “identitarian” is a sociological term for someone whose politics are grounded in his/her social identity. What’s a better understanding of the terms “liberal” and “universal liberalism”?

    It is essential to understand that “liberal” does not indicate a place on the left of the political spectrum, as it is often used in the United States. Neither does it indicate a place on the right of the political spectrum, as it is often used in Australia. Rather, it is a philosophical and ethical position with a long history which focuses on individuality, liberty, and equal opportunity. In fact, it is found in decidedly left-wing political positions, decidedly right-wing ones, libertarian ones, and among the unaffiliated but broadly centrist. Therefore, universal liberalism is a widely held principle, and it is one which grew out of Enlightenment thought and the founding of secular, liberal democracies. As such, it birthed the civil rights movements.

    From the essay “Identity Politics Does Not Continue the Work of the Civil Rights Movements” by Helen Pluckrose and James A. Lindsay

    Your illiberal and identitarian take on what’s “liberal” marks you as an ethical & philosophical opponent of individuality, liberty, equal opportunity, the continuation of the civil rights movement. My guess is that you’re proud of taking this opposition instead of being capable of being sorry for taking this position.

  • Mensch59

    Shelter-in-place or shelter-at-home are euphemisms for “stay away from public spaces and workplaces so as not to breathe on another (because you might be a carrier of a [fake] “deadly” contagion) and so as not to be breathed on by another (because s/he might be a carrier of a [fake] “deadly” contagion).
    The sociopathic and inhuman ruling class is infecting the public with the sociopathy and inhumanity of the ruling class. Publius, heal yourself.

    From the beginning of this crisis we have been pointing out that there are two mutually contradictory messages at the heart of the covid19 rollout, and, just as Orwell describes in 1984, a major point of the exercise seems to be to get people to believe both at the same time (emphasis in original throughout).

    1. ‘BE AFRAID…’
    The first message is that covid19 is terrifying, unique, an existential threat to the human race.

    This message is never sourced to much fact, because the facts about the virus don’t really support it. If it cites anything solid it’s the appallingly sloppy and discredited Imperial computer model, or some generic research into the pathology of severe infections or rare viral syndromes, which it tries to spin as being unique to covid19, even though it is not. But mostly it doesn’t cite anything at all. Or really claim anything at all.

    It just tells people to be afraid. Very afraid. Of death, of uncertainty, of the ‘virus’, of other people, of ‘fake news’.

    The fear being encouraged is not rooted in facts, and is therefore impervious to them.

    2. ‘THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF…’
    The second message is that covid19 is actually pretty harmless and no big deal.

    This message is rooted in a great deal of fact, because, as we have been pointing out since day one, pretty much all the data coming out about this virus supports exactly this conclusion.

    No official body has ever denied this, and most of them readily admit it. Regularly and unambiguously.

    From the article highlighting the video “WATCH: UK Chief Medic confirms (again) covid19 harmless to vast majority” by Catte Black. Watch the video. Read the hyperlinks. Inform yourselves.

    It seems to me that Popular Resistance wants to participate in the incentivisation of fear and the confusion over being both afraid and unafraid simultaneously.

  • SteelPirate

    Hello Fredo…you treacherous bastard 🙂

    Despite the current media-induced confusion, liberals are not leftists. This misconception is not only embarrassing to those of us who are genuinely leftist in our politics, it is also discrediting the Left. From the New York Times to FOX News, the portrayal of the US Democratic party and Barack Obama as leftist is creating a perception in the US populace that leftists are ineffective politicos who have no principles they won’t modify. Of course, the Left has not done that great of a job explaining the situation in any other way, thereby leaving the way open for the misconceptions put forth by the media to appear as truth.

    If one wants to know what a liberal is, they need only to look at the US Democratic Party. From Hilary Clinton to Dennis Kucinich, that party is in no way leftist. How can I say that? To begin with, liberals differ from leftists in fundamental ways. For starters, liberalism is founded on the sanctity of private property. According to John Locke, who is quite possibly the godfather of liberalism, it is the possession of property that gives humans their freedom. Indeed, in its early days, liberalism only saw freedom as being deserving to propertied males. While not disparaging the positive aspects of liberalism’s early days–its opposition to monarchy and the role of the Church, to name two of the most important ones–it is crucial to acknowledge the shortcomings of a philosophy grounded in the ownership of property. Since the fact of private ownership was a qualification for entry into self-governance it obviously excluded many members of those societies where the politics of liberalism replaced the monarchy and the Church. Add to this fact the denial of political power to women and (in the newly created United States) the acceptance of slavery, and the shortcomings of liberalism as a philosophy guaranteeing liberty and equality become glaringly obvious. It is understood by those that utilize a Marxist analysis to understand history that liberalism is a bourgeois philosophy, primarily because it protects the dominance of that class in those societies where it flourishes.

    Of course, history does progress. The slave trade was eventually outlawed in Europe and suffered a bloody end in the United States. Women did eventually achieve political and economic power in those nations where liberalism is the underlying philosophical foundation of the regime. This progress did not occur due to the graces of the ruling class, however. Of all the countries that fall under the liberal banner, France experienced the greatest upheavals on its way to eventual liberty for all of its citizens. The United States was close behind. Equality remains at best a promise. The greatest challenges to liberalism were the twentieth century’s two world wars. Yet, both of these wars were the result of liberalism’s necessary relationship to the capitalist economy. World War I was the result of a rivalry between empires that had run out of new lands to conquer. Those empires then turned on each other in an attempt to steal each other’s colonies. World War Two was a direct assault on the principles of liberalism by the totalitarian philosophy of fascism.

    This brings us neatly to the historical moment when liberalism became identified with governmental intervention into the domestic economy in ways not seen before. Instead of helping only the wealthy and their corporations dominate the economy as in the past, liberals began to encourage the installation of governmental controls on unfettered capitalism. This did not happen because liberals were interested in destroying capitalism, but in saving it. The institutions of capital in much of the world were under heavy fire from workers and others in the years preceding World War Two. Unlike the conservative free marketeers in public life, liberals during the reign of FDR understood that the only way to save capitalism from what they considered the twin evils of Bolshevism and fascism was to institute programs that would guarantee working people work and some minimum financial security. Government programs designed to provide this minimal security were legislated under intense attacks from the free marketeers and were the result of years of strikes and other battles from the labor Left. It is reasonable to state that these safety net programs and the transformation of the US economy to a Keynesian model that relied heavily on the production and sale of war materials did save capitalism in the United States and, consequently, throughout much of the world. This also placed the United States into the role of the primary capitalist and imperialist power. This transformation did at least two things. It insured that war and the preparation for war would continue to be a growth industry for US business and it created a situation where US workers (mostly white males at the time) would be able to live a relatively good life in terms of income and job security, thanks to the intensified exploitation of labor forces in the developing world. It also allowed the liberal government to push through programs like Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society and Medicare.

    The peak of postwar liberalism in the US was the 1960s. Its greatest triumph was passing legislation that ended legal apartheid in the US and its greatest defeat was the defeat of US forces in Southeast Asia. The latter, which was presented to the world as a mission to bring the liberal ideals of liberty and equality to the people of that region of the world, was disproved. The actual conduct of the war exposed this presentation for the lie it was: a bloody and brutal attempt to destroy a nation and a people that bordered on genocide. It also gave the US Left, which was at its greatest popularity since the 1930s, the opportunity to expose the myth of liberalism. That is, that liberalism’s ideals of liberty and equality could not be obtained under the economic machine of capitalism. This contradiction was apparent both in Vietnam and in the US, as the struggle for racial equality became an effort by the government to repress those individuals and groups dedicated to achieving that equality.

    The post World War Two years of capitalist expansion were followed by years of contraction that began in the early 1970s (most agree that 1973 was the exact year). This created a fear among the capitalist class and its governmental sycophants that they might lose their position in the world. So, they began to cut back on labor costs, shipping operations to the non-union southern US and then overseas and reneging on retirement promises and health care contracts. At first, there were those among the liberal establishment in the US who stood with the workers and opposed these moves. However, by the time the ultraright administration of Ronald Reagan was out of office, it was almost impossible to find a liberal who would stand with striking workers. Indeed, it was getting pretty difficult to find a national union official who would stand with striking workers. The free marketeers were back on top and were once again in complete control of the economic policy of Washington. This period saw the rise of a new type of liberal (the neoliberals) to positions of power in the White House and throughout Washington. Neoliberal Bill Clinton campaigned on a promise to halt so-called free trade agreement known as NAFTA and then pushed it through Congress in his first years in office. NAFTA and other free trade agreements were not about free trade, but about forcing already indebted nations of the developing world to accept US goods while destroying their own economies. At the same time, credit rules began to be loosened in the United States, resulting in the creation of untold billions of dollars that did not truly exist. Yet, as long as everyone from the individual getting a home loan to the World Bank forcing austerity measures on national governments believed that the money was good there was no apparent problem. The neoliberal model of world development–a model that encouraged dependence on US banks and corporations and espoused the philosophy that the free market would solve all social ills–reigned supreme.

    As for the liberal political program, it became a mere shadow of its earlier self. No longer were society wide programs to eliminate poverty like the Great Society programs mentioned earlier considered. Instead, the liberals looked at such programs and destroyed them under the guise of reform. Perhaps the best example of this strategy can be found in Bill Clinton’s Welfare Reform Act of 1996, a piece of legislation that took free marketeer Ronald Reagan’s statement that people in the US were only poor by choice and made that statement policy. Even when it came to identity politics, the liberals were hesitant to push their belief in equality to far. Instead of demanding legislation insuring de jure equality for the LBGT community, the Clinton administration chose to institute ambiguous policies that clarified little and arguably caused more discrimination. In addition, during his campaign, Clinton borrowed from the racist Southern strategy of the GOP and attacked performer Sister Souljah for her statements about black resistance to white racists. An adjunct to this more conservative social stance could be seen in liberals public embrace of religious figures and politics. Bill Clinton and the Democratic Party also supported the 1995 legislation increasing the number of federal offenses that could result in the death penalty while further militarizing the nation’s police forces. The US military attack on Yugoslavia in 1999 that came after forcing the Belgrade government to accept a peace agreement that guaranteed war was the final act in a reign that reminded everyone on the left that liberalism exists to defend the interests of the bourgeoisie.

    The Left believes in justice. According to most liberals, so do they. However, the Left also believes that there can not be genuine justice for all unless there is economic justice for all. To put it briefly, human rights can not exist for all regardless of class until economic inequality is addressed and minimized. Ideally, this means that the motivation of profit is eliminated altogether. It does not deny the right of people to own their own property, but it does deny those who would profit from letting others use that property through rent. Unlike liberalism, leftists publicly acknowledge the fundamental nature economics plays in how political structures operate. This doesn’t mean that liberals don’t understand the essential role capitalism plays in maintaining the liberal state in all its guises, it just means that leftists know that to lessen the inequalities that exist under capitalism, it is necessary to change it with the eventual goal of ending its predominant role in determining social relations. In short, leftists understand that capitalism is a fundamental source of social inequalities, while liberals tend to believe that, if capitalism cannot cure those inequities, it can surely help lessen them. This belief exists despite the historical empirical evidence that the opposite is true.

    If one looks at history, it seems apparent that leftism arose in response to the failings of the original liberal projects of the French revolution and the American war for independence. Both of these catalytic events did at least two important things. They ended the power of the monarchy and put the newly forming bourgeois class in power. Meanwhile, the peasants and the growing industrial working class discovered that the ideals of liberty and equality did not apply to them. In fact, their unequal status in relation to the bourgeoisie was essential to the rule of that class. This realization created a need for a different political philosophy that progressed beyond the principles of the French Revolution. Like the philosophy of that revolution, this newer philosophy was born from the experience of the oppressed. It found its most complete expression in the pens of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

    Liberals fear the end of capitalism and therefore will not support those who desire to undermine it. This is why they supported the Cold War. It is why they support the establishment of a client state in Iraq and why they support the expansion of the US war in Afghanistan. It is why they support a health care bill that is not single payer but supportive of the insurance industry. It is why Barack Obama had no doubts when he continued the Bush bailout of Wall Street. The musician Phil Ochs said it like this in his 1965 song “Love Me, Love Me I’m a Liberal.”
    But don’t talk about revolution
    That’s going a little bit too far
    So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal…
    There’s no one more red, white and blue
    So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal

    Like liberals, there are several varieties of leftists. All, however, share an understanding that capitalism is an essentially unfair economic system that rewards those who already have capital much more frequently than those who just work their tails off. They also understand that capitalism needs wars to survive and requires inequality to function. This is why they oppose it. As stated before, liberals have a much rosier view of capitalism and have historically been willing to do whatever it takes to save it. So, while they may be the Left’s occasional allies, they are not the Left, no matter how many times FOX News and the New York Times say they are.

    –Ron Jacobs (Dissident Voice)

  • Politics can bring out the best and or the worst in people.

  • Mensch59

    I wonder what brings out the better angels of our nature while simultaneously disempowering our “worser spirits”.
    “If this small corpus is to be trusted, our “better angels” as evoked in our literature are primarily those inner traits guiding us toward friendship, unity, good conscience, and lightness and buoyancy of spirit, as they are simultaneously challenged and sometimes overcome by tendencies toward selfishness, divisiveness, fear, despondency, and heaviness and dullness of spirit.” ~ from the article “Better Angels” In Our Past by David Blankenhorn
    “President Abraham Lincoln popularized the phrase for Americans in his First Inaugural Address. But he did not coin it.”
    Thanks for your friendship toward me and your patience with me.

  • Hi Gary… Have you ever read the book titled, “I’M OKAY,,,, You’re OKAY” ? Good book, and it works… You’re okay Gary.

  • Mensch59

    Yeah. I participated in a class which focused on that book.

  • I’m not at all surprised… I like the saving chips when something ticks us off and then cash them in in a big blow up… That is what people do.

    We have a friend who works in a cat house and she says since they are all wearing masks that business went down the tubes.

  • Jon

    FYI My former wife in Bronx NY got a medium case of the virus and is now recovering. My daughter, with whom she lives, tested positive but has had no symptoms, nor do her pre-teen children, who, as far as I know did not get tested.

  • Jon

    And the third is Trust Big Brother to take care of you.

  • Collectivist

    Lol

    Nice opening line, btw.

  • Jon

    “When did public health become fascism?” Wrong question, Margaret. Not honest public health, of course! Medical fascism is when untrustworthy practitioners of dishonest science, inject people against their will (with dire consequences for refusal) with substances containing poisonous ingredients (e.g. mercury, aluminum, and formaldehyde).
    When we were kids we could trust the medical profession across the board, Now we can’t. Some near the top are deeply corrupted for power and money. We have to pay attention to the medical equivalents of Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange.

  • SteelPirate

    🙂

  • Southern

    I have strong reservations about contact tracing – which is ”unsurprizingly ” being suggested all around the Western world – or to download the new app – all of this contact tracing will be vaporizing the few civil rights that are left over – in the end – its just another invasion of what little privacy remains.

    Why is it always the working class that needs to hand over more and more of our civil rights while the financial elite use disaster capitalism to accumulate even more wealth as a direct result of this latest disaster.

  • 2020Vision

    i would link you , i did in fact recently post on tumblr on this but it has just been deleted, after less than 2 months, this after my tumblr of 10 + years was deleted. so many links ectr.

    here’s the message i just found in my spam.

    Tumblr Trust & Safety (tumblr)

    May 20, 2020, 10:07:39 AM EDT
    Hello,

    As you may know, the World Health Organization recently announced that
    COVID-19, otherwise known as coronavirus, can be characterized as a
    pandemic. You can read their statement here.

    COVID-19 is
    spreading, but misinformation and disinformation are spreading even
    faster. In order to protect Tumblr’s community from the real and serious
    danger that misinformation presents, we have terminated your account at
    ……….tumblr.com.

    This termination is final, and replies to this message will not be reviewed.

    Tumblr Trust and Safety

    not even a warning!
    i just count myself lucky that this isn’t irl, yet!

    DEFINITELY,CERTAINLY NOT CENSORSHIP/CORPORATE FASCISM!!!

    only to keep info/opinion that opposes corporate fascism out of discourse and information re health/vaccines, ectr.

  • 2020Vision

    it’s mild, mostly asymptomatic, easily recovered but….it could get you any time, you might not recover the 15 hundreds time you get it, and if that fails t leads to all sorts.
    in fact it leads to any and everything that’s actually been caused by vaccine injury.

  • sabelmouse

    other deaths 😉

  • sabelmouse

    it’s a mystery how/why they’d rather. not that corporate are doing this, THAT makes sense, but the eagerness to comply.

  • Mensch59

    Yep. “The government exists to keep its subjects safe and secure” is a big part of fear-based propaganda coming from The Ministry of Truth.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    You waste your time trying to talk sense to those whose brains have been washed clean with fear, disinformation, and propaganda. They only accept what they hear from the MSM, and discount any and all counter-narratives. Paraphrasing Ben Franklin, they happily trade essential liberty for a temporary sense of safety, and deserve neither.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    We’ve stood behind facts all along. It is you who has shilled for the propagandists.

    The entire response to COVID-19 has been one huge authoritarian power grab, under the guise of protecting the public from a bad flu. Plenty of well-informed, knowledgable scientists and medical professionals have said as much, but they are shut out of mainstream media, and smeared as “conspiracy theorists,” “quacks,” or (my favorite) the ubiquitous “Russian assets.”

    How sad that purported “leftists” such as yourself stand with the Truthspeak-addled crowd. Orwell really was right.

  • kevinzeese

    What the response to COVID-19 has been is a disaster. Mishandled by Trump, governors and mayors who acted slowly and without a sufficient public health response. The failure to do so has added tens of thousands of deaths that could have been prevented. It has also resulted in the shutdown of the economy which could have been minimized if public health strategies were in place. The US was notified by China on January 3 and did not take action until mid-March. The US could have used that time to prepare but failed to do. The response to COVID-19 shows a bi-partisan failed state. We need to replace both parties. They are a disgrace in governance.

    The virus is real but the response did not treat it like the pandemic it is.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    The virus is real. The over-the-top-hysterical response is dangerous and completely unhinged. In 2017, when almost as many people died from the flu, there were no lockdowns, facemarks, social distancing, shutting down businesses, crashing the economy, or tens of millions of workers unemployed.

    The entire response has been hysterical and unhinged, aided and abetted by a diabolical corporate media that pushes fear-porn-propaganda for ratings and $. The corrupt Congress used the “crisis” to funnel trillions of dollars upward to the biggest corporations and Wall Street, while condemning workers to austerity and “rugged individualism.” That’s not to mention the cessation of civil liberties, many of which will never return. Remember the Patriot Act? That was supposed to be a “temporary” response to “terrorism” to keep us safe. The surveillance state is, if anything, even stronger today. This is the solidification of authoritarianism in this country, a process that began after 911.

    Ben Franklin had it exactly right when he stated, “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” The American public is completely brainwashed to it’s collective eyeballs.

  • kevinzeese

    The problem is the incompetent response. January and February were used to prepare a public health response the US might have averted a shut down of the economy, or at least minimized it. The failure to have a rapid public health response is what has given the US the worst record in the world in response to the pandemic. The US has 4% of the world’s population and almost 30% of the world’s death from COVID-19. Incompetence from Trump down to most mayors and governors is the problem.

  • Old 8 Legs

    I love that.

    How’s it going?? I saw your calling card the other day, but also saw your wrist was in bad shape so I didn’t want to give you more to reply to. Hope all is well!.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Incompetence in addressing a somewhat worse than normal flu season is the problem? I don’t think so.

  • Starfire

    Good to know you’re not into gangs. Me neither. I am interested in the truth…if there is such a thing;)

  • Collectivist

    I grew up around gangs, but resisted – at a social and physical price – joining one. I associate, or disassociate, 😎 with who I want and make up my own mind, at any given time, what, not who, I want to promote.

    Besides, my parents would have never have aloud me to join a gang.

    I feared them more than any gang.😎

  • Starfire

    Good on you. I also feared my parents when I was a kid, and was able to resist peer pressure…yeah, at a price. I was not one of the cool kids. More like a nerd who hid in the library. No regrets there. The only times my brother and I got to have some fun is when mom and dad took us on vacation. They would relax the supervision, giving us a chance to run wild😎

  • CoCoLuv9491

    More zero sum thinking from the faux leftist crowd.

    Not everyone who protests these draconian measures designed to trample civil rights are right-wing libertarians or Trump supporters. You’ve revealed your disingenuousness while attempting to smear defenders of freedom and the working class from your authoritarian state and the global capitalist class.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    LOL. While you freaks support the authoritarian, neoliberal measures that are gonna kill people in greater numbers, and for a longer f*cking period of time. And it won’t be from a virus. Dolt.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Bullsh*t.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    LOL.

  • Starfire

    I worry about those Canada geese. They fly around here honking in the middle of the night. Filthy birds. May their population be reduced, and they be relegated to the food banks or freezers. We also have an abundance of wild turkeys, which could be relegated for the same purpose.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    I refuse to wear a facemask, and I go out when I please.

    I hardly have the words to describe the contempt I have for those that have succumbed to a 24/7 non-stop disinformation and fear-mongering campaign by the corporate media re: this bad flu season. Any government official that doubts the propaganda is too terrified of the blowback from the brainwashed masses to stand up for the truth. The media has set the policy, with the help of vaccine manufacturers, globalists, billionaire eugenicists, and medical “professionals” on the governmental or corporate payroll. We have truly entered the final stage of an Orwellian reality. Newspeak is now the official information source for the majority, while those who doubt the lies are smeared as “conspiracy theorists” and “Russian assets.” Scary sh*t.

  • Wondering cocco – what is the price of a soul these days?

    Neoliberal? That’s you bub. You are in the company of Sociopaths and nzis – the likes of Trump, and his fellow right wing creeps – the Proud Boys, condederate flag waving racists, heavily armed mercenary thugs and swastika flaunting ghouls. Are you one if Trump’s “good people on all sides” morons who dismiss the dregs of humanity who you also side with – against the poor and working class?

    “Get back to work ya worthless peasants” is the cry of the rulers of capital – and you.

    Hope you are being paid well for your brown shirted bootlicking

    Where the hell is your critical analysis here and assessment of the role of capital in social collapse?

    Crickets coco is your deplorable response.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    It ain’t just Trumpers who oppose the authoritarian measures you and your faux leftist tag-team enthusiastically support. Until you understand the grievances of workers, whatever their political stripe, your rants about “capital” and “workers” and “class struggle” are nothing more than empty rhetoric and hollow marxist virtue signaling. Congratulations. You’re now aligned with the Clinton Democrats. You can continue to feel superior as you look down on the “deplorables,” while either, unconsciously or deliberately, supporting the oligarch’s perennial strategy of “divide and conquer” the masses. You and your ilk are a joke.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    “Mass death?” Could you be more hyperbolic?

    No.

  • You didnt address anything i said. Again.

    Hard to communicate with folks who, in their zeal to promote their talking points don’t have the honesty to discuss… anything.

    It’s not authoritarian to force workers to work in unsafe conditions – or literally starve them by getting employers to snitch on them so they can stop their income?

    Get outta here!

  • Collectivist

    “Smear defenders of freedom and the working class”

    That’s what I’ve been doing ?
    Good thing you told me.😉

    Gee, what will I do next?
    Imperial conquest?
    Genocide?

    I’m the ruling class!

    (GTFOOH). You scoundrel.
    😁
    Sorry

  • CoCoLuv9491

    The only “unsafe conditions” are in your newly scrubbed mind. Unsafe conditions certainly aren’t reality, unless you believe CNN has finally become reality-based.

    Throwing workers out on the streets, with no safety net nor healthcare, while funneling trillions to the biggest corporations in the country is authoritarianism. Rescinding civil rights, including the right to assembly, is authoritarianism. Manipulating everyone to comply with these authoritarian dictates through non-stop corporate media propaganda, generated 24/7, is authoritarianism, Orwell-style.

    There is nothing authoritarian about letting workers return to their jobs, unless your hope is that if enough people become destitute and desperate they’ll join you and your faux leftist cabal’s pipe-dream revolution. Sacrifice enough workers, and maybe they’ll rise up? You folks are beyond cynical.

    No income and no healthcare has real world consequences for real people. Not that you shills for hysteria and chaos care.

  • SteelPirate

    How you doing TUS. Hope you’re hanging in there ok. Perfect for the occasion is Ochs. That ages well doesn’t it 🙂

  • Collectivist

    “virtue signaling”

    Hmmm . . . one of the rightwings favorite phrases.
    I see that a lot on Breitbart, during their regular cyber spatial hate fests.

    Recently, on gravedigger, I came across the phrase “environmental shaming”, in a climate disruption denial piece.

  • Hey Southern – the elites always exploit everything. Good times, bad times, disaster…

    They do that because they have the power to do it – and the insatiable appetite to acquire more.

    That is the way the system is set up.

    Lets change the system.

  • Collectivist

    “I refuse to wear a facemask”

    “Give Me Covid or” . . .you know, the thing.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Yes, you and your faux leftist gang get to define what is and what are not the “rightwing’s favorite phrases.”

    It reminds me of when my Democratic Party apologist brother-in-law told me that I was right-wing because I used the term “Deep State.” Only conservatives use that term, he told me.

    You’re no different than him, in that regard. Straw men are all you and he got.

  • Mensch59

    Until you understand the grievances of workers, whatever their political stripe, your rants about “capital” and “workers” and “class struggle” are nothing more than empty rhetoric and hollow marxist virtue signaling.

    Yep. Been there, done that. Empty rhetoric and hollow signaling is almost everything these illiberal ideologues have going for them.
    If they declare someone or some idea to be “deplorable” or some other (fill in the blank) adhesive, then it’s so.
    That’s why they make apologies for authoritarianism.
    They see themselves as the ultimate authorities on political ideas.

  • TUSAgain

    Yes! Always thought Ole Phil was perfect for any occasion but I am noticing that I have been the weird side of things for a lifetime…well, call me predictable which ought to count for something, eh?

    You take care SP….and thank you for the inspired writing…much appreciate it 🙂

  • Mensch59

    When these leftist authoritarians seize political power, then it’s time for re-education camps, a system of forced labor camps, firing squads, counter-revolutionary reigns of terror.
    You’re simply dealing with a leftist version of an ideologically rigid/illiberal Rush Limbaugh type.
    Both these types of leftists and rightists have convictions!!
    F. Nietzsche — ‘Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.’
    “Convictions are very absolute. In many cases, they are more about belief than facts. This basis makes the convictions unassailable by anything, including the truth.
    Lies, on the other hand, are rarely based on anything, and can usually be overturned by simple exposure to the truth. This makes lies a relatively easy opponent to defeat.” ~ Philosiblog

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Temper, temper.

  • Mensch59

    “As stated before, liberals have a much rosier view of capitalism and have historically been willing to do whatever it takes to save it.” ~ Ron Jacobs
    Another member of your illiberal ideological club/”gang”/clique/tribe.

    Maybe you could do your part of not “saving” capitalism by never using a financial institution ever again and refusing to pay your share of the taxes which go to (a) imperial protection of trade routes and (b) servicing the national debt.
    You know. Become an actual buccaneer, freebooter, marauder, privateer instead of a pretend one. Practice anti-capitalism.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Dr, Coates is good at his job, which is spreading propaganda and disinformation in the service of authoritarians, vaccine corporations, and globalist billionaires. He is about to receive more government grants any time now, not to mention a pat on the back from CNN’s favorite medical “expert,” Dr. Fauci.

    God, I can’t believe how brainwashed the liberal class has become. It’s truly Orwellian.

  • Alice X

    Dr, Coates is good at his job, which is spreading propaganda and
    disinformation in the service of authoritarians, vaccine corporations,
    and globalist billionaires.…

    So you dispute that he has actually tended to CoV patients?

    If you cannot provide documentation to that fact then you have completely lost any respect that I once held for you.

  • SteelPirate

    Tip of the hat to TUSAgain 🙂 And yes…take care of yourself too…

  • Alice X

    Contact tracing only has benefit at the very beginning of the virus outset. South Korea jumped right on it and crushed the curve. After the very early outset of a highly contagious pathogen, the contact web will have grown to large to engage.

    South Korea and the US observed their first cases on the same day in January.

    SK jumped and the US flopped.

  • Alice X

    You are a complete ass to compare medical professionals to those poor dupes who adhere only to the M$M.

    Your reputation is sinking rapidly.

  • SteelPirate

    Fredo…is that a rallying cry for “be the change you wish to see” !!!

    More’s the pity that you hold such reactionary notions. As capitalism marches on destroying everything in its path and impoverishing untold millions more… the picture will become crystal clear to you. As you and some will never understand… it’s not about what I do or about what anyone else does as “individual protest”… its about the whole. One can make the personal lifestyle choice to “live like a socialist”… or live “like a libertarian”… or any other form of “be the change you wish to see”… and it matters little as long as capitalism is the economic system that reigns. Capitalism will do what it will always do… and that is impoverish the many for the well-being of the few. And there’s not a single individualist lifestyle choice you choose that will ever change that. Move to the Himalayas, become a monk, join the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, be depressed, sing the blues, smoke dope, become a vegan, go organic, go green, etc. None of it is going to move the meter one inch towards working class power.

  • Alice X

    Seasonal flu has a (case fatality rate) CFR of less than 1 per 1000 cases.

    The world Covid CFR is presently 65 per 1000.

    The US Covid CFR is presently 59 per 1000.

    Michigan, where I am, is presently 95 per 1000, pushed up by Metro Detroit. The worst in the nation.

    The UK is presently 144 per 1000.

    The seasonal flu CFR is miniscule compared to the the CFR of Covid.

    Why do you continue to write of the seasonal flu? which is a different virus, for one, and has such a remote CFR.

  • Alice X

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    However, I am very glad that they did not have a dire experience.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Great to see that you and the gang got your old circle jerk going again! Have fun!

  • Alice X

    The face mask protects others more than it protects you.

    Asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic people shed the virus.

    You need to read much more literature, and stop with the M$M.

    So you are a Libertarian. I’ve got your number.

  • Mensch59

    Acceptance of the objective reality perceived by reasonable observers isn’t “reactionary”, Pirate.
    Just like the reality that the F.I.R.E. sector of the capitalist political-economy is dominating the industrial & governmental sectors of the capitalist political-economy, which dominance has further disempowered labor and the citizenry isn’t “reactionary”.
    Just like the reality that history isn’t as progressive as your old-fashioned ideas dictate isn’t “reactionary”.
    Capitalism has devolved into neo-feudalism, but that’s a reality you refuse to comprehend. So you’re stuck in the past. Being stuck in the past is more “reactionary” than experiencing the present.

    Observing, sensing, perceiving, directly experiencing things (e.g. social phenomena) as they really are isn’t reactionary.
    The (false) accusation of “reactionary” is merely you putting your subjective ideological spin on objective reality. You put too much faith (i.e. certainty or proof) in ideas instead of your senses, your perceptions, your direct experience, your observations.

    The opposite of individuality is conformity. You’ve conformed to an illiberal leftist ideology. Maybe that makes you a densely solid materialist. My preferred form of matter is plasma. My second preferred form is liquid.

    You and I are simply too different to see eye-to-eye. And both of us are too stubborn to leave it alone and allow the other the final “Well, if you say so”.
    It’s actually kinda funny.
    🙂

  • Alice X

    There are several areas of investigation as to why some people are lightly impacted and others are highly impacted, even fatally impacted by exposure to the virus.

    Firstly, I haven’t seen it clearly stated as to how many viral particles it takes to be infected. There are available links in this vein.

    But following on that, other studies have suggested that the initial viral load (what one is hit with firstly) predicts the severity of the infection.

    Other studies have followed basic genetic dispositions to susceptibility.

    And it should be obvious that if one is infirm to begin with that there is necessarily an increased likelihood of a fatal outcome.

  • Alice X

    To quote CoCoLuv9491 –

    Bullsh*t.

  • Alice X

    The entire response to COVID-19 has been one huge authoritarian power grab

    I will not dispute that there is a great power grab, those in power will always grab for more power.

    But you mistake the actual dire human prospects stemming from this virus as being something co-ordinated by the powers that be.

    The Oligarchs have their teams ready to pounce on the upside of any situation, even the dead bodies of millions of proles.

    This virus has no political polarity. It has a case fatality rate which world wide is presently sixty times the seasonal flu.

  • SteelPirate

    Just getting warmed up Grasshopper. Stick around for a spell…you have much to learn. As it stands… you’re merely a reactionary errand boy, sent by right-wing grocery clerks, out to collect a bill. And… you ain’t getting paid.

  • SteelPirate

    There is no Rogerian argument to be had here. The historical reality belongs to me. The reactionary fantasy belongs to you. I’ve rearranged this Lenin bit just for you Fredo 🙂

    “We are marching in a compact group along a precipitous and difficult path, firmly holding each other by the hand. We are surrounded on all sides by enemies, and we have to advance almost constantly under their fire. We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighboring Digger marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the Digger marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the Digger marsh. In fact, we think that the Digger marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the Digger marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the Digger marsh!”

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Seniors and others with compromised immunity or comorbid conditions should stay home. The rest of us should go about business as usual. The herd immunity threshold will be reached, and the virus will disappear or subside. Will some people die? Tens of thousands died during the bad flu epidemic of 2017. That cannot be avoided. Crashing the economy and putting tens of millions out of a job with no healthcare to save a few lives, when a reasoned, targeted approach with the most vulnerable demographic will do, is the height of irresponsibility.

    Your projection onto me is completely inaccurate. I am not a libertarian. It’s not just right-wing libertarians and Trumpers who oppose these authoritarian measures. It’s anyone with a modicum of curiosity, and who can see when they are being lied to by the corporate media… again!

    There are MANY counter-narratives out there by knowledgable, informed scientists and medical professionals that refute the mainstream account, but they aren’t allowed on CNN or MSNBC. Just like there were no counter-narratives allowed for “incubator babies,” WMD, and “Russiagate.” All were eventually proven as conspiracy theories and lies pushed by the same media you now believe wholeheartedly. Liberals are like abused spouses. They stay for more, thinking this time things will be different. And they refuse to acknowledge the truth when it stares them in the face.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    “I don’t support mandatory vaccines. They should be made available at no cost but people should be able to decline for multiple reasons including religion and health.”

    Finally something you say that I agree with! Another one of the reasons that people should be able to decline is that they just don’t want it.

    Now, if you can just get Billionaire Bill to see it that way…

  • CoCoLuv9491

    I’m happy to see you, SteelParrot, et all are enjoying your circle jerk.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    LOL! Your medical professionals are the MSM.

    “Your reputation is sinking rapidly.” I take that as a badge of honor. Kinda like when I was kicked off DailyKos, or booted from Alternet. All leftists should welcome contempt from establishment bootlickers.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    “This virus has no political polarity. It has a case fatality rate which world wide is presently sixty times the seasonal flu.”

    That is a complete lie! Show your source for such disinformation!

    I’ll give to you… when you go for the lie, it’s a whopper!

  • CoCoLuv9491

    I’ve never supported Trump, you moron.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    I’m flattered.

  • I disagree. Vaccination should be mandatory. Exemptions should be for medical reasons only. They are a necessity today in our global culture, and will only be more so in the foreseeable future. The ethical reasons for this are pretty obvious.

    That being said, we need to put the pharmaceutical industry, in both the U. S. and internationally, on a short leash where it belongs. Vaccines, like all medications and medical procedures, need to be tested and vetted by a qualified and democratically elected and controlled public authority whose only concern must be public health and safety, effectively a licensing authority with no obligation whatsoever to any for-profit interests–including virtue signalling from fraudulent humanitarian multi-billionaire oligarchs. We have such policing authorities in place already, across multiple industries–but this has become frighteningly nominal. Government organizations like the FDA or the FAA are today more concerned with promoting the interests of the industries which they were meant to police in the first place.

  • Alice X

    So I have given you a link to Johns Hopkins which will take time for approval. There are other sources which are parallel.

    They all point to world wide cases of over five million with three hundred thirty thousand plus fatalities. Sixty five times the CFR of the seasonal flu. Show me your sources to say it is otherwise.

    The US has 1.6 million cases with ninety five k fatalities. Fifty nine times the seasonal flu. Show me your sources.

    Are you a nihilist? There must be some scientific reckoning or there is only nihilism.

  • Alice X

    In 2017, when almost as many people died from the flu, there were no lockdowns

    Show me links for said deaths in 2017.

    I wager you can’t.

  • Southern

    Tell me something new it’s also known as disaster capitalism, for every disaster is a response.

    So what do you propose?

  • Alice X

    Ok – so I’ve just gone off to have a shot of brandy and I want to be less strident.

    I don’t disagree in the least about your observations on the Oligarchs’ looting of the public purse.

    Let’s observe scientific quantification, absent political subterfuge, if that is possible.

    If it is not possible then we have nothing. As I said before: nihilism.

  • Southern

    Exactly the horse has already bolted.

  • Southern

    How hard is it to get at least 271 electors into position – isn’t that the real gerrymandering?

    Might be easier to simply replace the electoral college with something far more democratic like directly casting votes for the candidate of choice instead of indirectly – after all the electoral college isn’t bound by the popular vote.

    I moved off grid late last year, solar power and our own water supply – already half way there to self sufficiency, however my health isn’t exactly what it once was and living off grid can be a lot of hard work.

    A hand written note posted on a light pole nearby: If voting changed anything they’d make it illegal…..vote for the communist party.

    From my perspective the only way things will change – for the better – is to turn the tables around which requires holding those in high office accountable for violating numerous international laws, crimes against humanity etc etc on their watch.

    Exceptionalism has to end.

  • sabelmouse

    it’s a long con and confusion might be part of it, or NOT censoring [ at first] part of seeing how people react.
    in any case, the trap will snap in the 3rd phase.
    after [partial ] reopening the second wave……

  • 0040

    As you said Bullshit . Stats provided by governments and their propagandists can no longer be trusted. Even when they appeal to your preconceived political beliefs .

  • Mensch59

    The vulnerable need to be protected with the least possible amount of social disruption.
    The lockdown has caused great social disruption, exacerbating vulnerability.
    Read this paper — “Disease Mitigation Measures in the Control of Pandemic Influenza” — in order to see the scientific case for why lockdowns & ordering healthy people to social distance & socio-economic disruptions are NOT the ways to tackle viral pandemics.
    Donald A. Henderson (1928-2016), though listed last, was the primary author along with co-authors Thomas V.Inglesby, epidemiologist Jennifer B. Nuzzo, and physician Tara O’Toole.

    There are several illiberal leftists on these threads arguing against the science presented in the above cited paper. These illiberal leftists are arguing for the politics of making more people vulnerable via socioeconomic disruptions and worsening the vulnerability of the already vulnerable. Maybe these illiberal leftists are aware of this contradiction. Maybe they’re blind.

    There’s nothing wrong with your post that I’d argue against. The vast majority of people who are infected are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms. Given that Covid-19 is officially a pandemic, what percentage of the human race has been infected? We don’t know. But we can calculate from the worldwide death toll and the worldwide population what the mortality rate of Covid is and compare it to the mortality rate of the Spanish flu. The Spanish flu is estimated to have killed between 0.95% and 5.4% from the spring of 1918 through the fall of 1920. Where are we at so far with the infectious spread of Covid from the fall of 2019 through the spring of 2020? According to worldometers, taking the total number of deaths divided by the human population times 100, the global mortality rate is 0.00431%. This current mortality rate justifies what’s happening? I don’t think so. I smell something sinister, nefarious — much more menacing than a novel corona virus.

    “How did a temporary plan to preserve hospital capacity turn into two-to-three months of near-universal house arrest that ended up causing worker furloughs at 256 hospitals, a stoppage of international travel, a 40% job loss among people earning less than $40K per year, devastation of every economic sector, mass confusion and demoralization, a complete ignoring of all fundamental rights and liberties, not to mention the mass confiscation of private property with forced closures of millions of businesses?”

  • Mensch59

    The illiberal mindset isn’t worth additional attempts at a good faith dialogue.

  • Mensch59

    Very few people are able to see the warning signs — such as the unsafe speed of the Titanic in ocean lanes where icebergs were present and having enough life boats for only a fraction of the passengers.

  • sabelmouse

    or a double hull, who could have known that.

  • Keep fighting the good fight, Kevin; it is an uphill battle for sure.

    Could you please check your pending folder? I have a comment that went into spam and that I reposted that went into pending. No trigger words that I am aware of.

  • Mensch59

    “New York City reached over a 25% infection rate and yet 99.98% of all people in the city under 45 survived, making it comparable to death rates by normal accidents.” ~ Yinon Weiss, “How Fear, Groupthink Drove Unnecessary Global Lockdowns”
    The entire article at anti-empire dot com is well worth the read.

  • Amazing the fruitcake nonsense they make stuff up and try to foist as “information”. “Hey it must be true because it didn’t come from the MSM!!”, they cry!!

  • Alice X

    New York City reached over a 25% infection rate

    Where did you get that number?

  • CoCoLuv9491

    zzzzzzzzzzzz

  • CoCoLuv9491

    You are a lying propagandist and professional bullsh*tter.

  • Wandering Hillbilly

    I think that wild turkeys must reproduce with magic because they seem do it very fast, but only happens if you feed them because if you see one and feed it, tomorrow there will 10, feed them and the next day there will be 20, feed them and…..

  • CoCoLuv9491

    Yeah. Good question. A better one – how did you come to this?

  • CoCoLuv9491

    I provided the links, but Popular Resistance moderators, in sincere attempts to keep discussion with an approved parameter, did not allow my post to stand.

    Censorship comes in many forms.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    While you accept what you’re told by the MSM???

    Gulf of Tonkin
    Incubator babies
    WMD
    Russia Russia Russia
    COVID-19

    I could go on. By this time anyone who takes what they are told by CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News at face value are either naive, willfully ignorant, or have something to gain personally from propagandizing.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    U R deluded at best. Willfully Irresponsible at worst.

  • Mensch59

    “Coronavirus Antibodies Present In Nearly 25% Of All NYC Residents, Cuomo Says; Un-PAUSE In Certain Regions Of NY Might Begin In May”
    newyork dot cbslocal dot com

  • Mensch59

    Posts with links automatically go into “Pending”.
    I post the headline with an abbreviated url blahdy dot blah dot com or org or edu.

  • A stopped clock is right twice a day.

    The MSM also has weather reports. If they tell you it’s raining, are you going to dismiss that because MSM – EVEN when you can look out the window and see the rain, walk outside and have it soak your clothes?

    Just because crackpots and wackadoodles make dumb stuff up, it is utter foolishness to lap it up – because “it came from outside the MSM” – as you are doing with the pandemic.

    What do I have to gain personally from confronting the nuttery and right wingers here and elsewhere who are propagandizing capitalist propaganda as you are? A healthier society for one.

  • Mensch59

    “The CFR for seasonal influenza is 0.1%.” ~ SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus case fatality ratio – Virology Blog. See virology dot ws › 2020/03/05
    “The case fatality rate for COVID-19 differs around the world and fluctuates as the outbreak progresses.” ~ Public Health Ontario. Review of “Case-fatality rate and characteristics of patients dying in relation to COVID-19 in Italy”. Toronto, ON: Queen’s Printer for Ontario; 2020 Mar 25.
    “The case fatality rate for Canada as of April 21, 2020 was reported as 4.6%.” ~ Public Health Agency of Canada. COVID-19 Daily epidemiology update. Ottawa, ON: PHAC; 2020 Apr 21.

    It’s that this SARS corona virus is new. It might be helpful to compare the CFR of Covid with the CFR of the first SARS outbreak and with MERS and with the 1968 Hong Kong flu pandemic and the 1957 Asian flu pandemic.

  • Alice X

    The CDC numbers for the US 2017-2018 influenza season

    44,802,629 infections (as reported, but there are probably many more)

    61,099 deaths and thus a 0.14% CFR

    Covid thus far in the US

    1,611,297 infections

    95,213 deaths and thus a 5.9% CFR – forty two times the CFR of the 2017-2018 influenza

    and for 2018-2019 influenza

    35,520,883 infections

    34,157 deaths and thus a 0.096% CFR which I previously rounded up to 0.1%

    So you are correct that the 2017-2018 influenza season was significantly worse than normal, but still nowhere near as bad as Covid.

    And remember, there are flu vaccines, but the last number I read is that they are generally only 45% effective.

    0.001363

  • Alice X

    Ok, I found it – the headline is completely misleading, there were 7,500 tests and the rest is pure speculation. There are also questions about the reliability of the tests. Here are the first paragraphs:

    ALBANY, N.Y. (CBSNewYork) — Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Monday that the number of statewide random antibody tests has expanded to 7,500, which reveals a better picture of the extent of coronavirus spread in New York.

    Cuomo said 14.9% of those tested statewide tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies, which is up from the initial 13.9% statewide when a previous sample of 3,000 people was done on April 22. Cuomo said the 1% increase is statistically in the margin of error.

    Regionally, the results suggest:
    24.7% positive in New York City
    15.1% positive in Westchester/Rockland
    14.4% positive on Long Island
    3.2% positive in the rest of the state

  • That would be a resounding “nope”. Once you’re “woke”, there apparently is no consideration that you MIGHT just be wrong. Particularly when one’s own comfort is involved.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    OK, thanks. I’ll try that.

  • Collectivist

    Hmmm . . .

  • Collectivist

    “The MSM also has weather reports. If they tell you it’s raining, are you going to dismiss that because MSM – EVEN when you can look out the window and see the rain, walk outside and have it soak your clothes?”

  • Collectivist

    Project much?

  • Mensch59

    Yes. There IS a question of the reliability of the tests — both regarding false positives and false negatives.
    Then there’s the unreliability of social distancing, the efficacy of masking, the stupidity of moving Covid patients back and forth between hospitals and nursing homes, not allowing people who have an effective survival rate of 100% to get exposed, not reporting what’s happening in hospitals.

    A group of doctors from the Papa Giovanni XXIII hospital in Bergamo warned of nosocomial infections [used interchangeably with the terms health-care associated infections (HAIs) and hospital-acquired infections] in the New England Journal of Medicine. “We are learning that hospitals might be the main Covid-19 carriers,” they wrote. “They are rapidly populated by infected patients, facilitating transmission to uninfected patients.”

    In New York, the virus is already spreading in hospitals. At one major New York hospital, a healthcare worker described to Gothamist how COVID-19 patients from the network’s fifteen other hospitals were being sent there. Patients were mixed in different wards, including intensive care units. Three intensive care patients who arrived at the hospital with other issues later developed nosocomial COVID-19 symptoms.

    “It’s like a cesspool…It’s now spreading throughout the hospital,” a hospital worker said. “I am sure I am going to get infected. My concern is that we are both getting infected and spreading it to other patients.”

    Ground Zero: When the Cure is Worse than the Disease

  • Nylene13

    Sherlock-I just read that Bernie is now demanding that his delegates sign written pledges to not say anything critical about Biden or the Democratic Party.

    Is this true? Have you heard this?

  • Mensch59

    There are facts and then there’s groupthink disguised as facts.

    The latest groupthink has to do with lockdowns & lockdown generated unemployment “saving lives”. There are also the idiots who think that one must be “woke” to identify groupthink.

    The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population. ~ “A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data” by John P.A. Ioannidis (March 17, 2020)

    Yet there are complete idiots (like the person below answering for SF) lying about this issue being reduced to personal comfort.

  • Mensch59

    Excellent post.

    Something is not right when the medical industry becomes the third largest killer in the nation.

    And when hospitals spread Covid.

  • That I haven’t heard of yet. What I have heard however is that for the slots for pledged delegates won in the Dem primary that has actually taken place so far, people who are likely to remain loyal to Sanders, and who might stir up a fuss come Convention time, are being replaced by Biden-friendly, DNC puppetoons.

    I’ve given up on the Democratic Party. It has become a progressive-killing machine. And anyone who believes that its entrenched, self-serving leadership will response to the needs of the American public is merely blowing smoke up their own ss.

  • Mensch59

    You have more patience with your interlocutor than myself.
    That commenter calls me “creepy” which I consider an honor. It’s kinda like when a complete moron calls you “stupid”. It’s kinda like a backhanded compliment when you consider the source.
    🙂

    Once someone descends into rhetoric like that, it’s pretty clear that that someone has nothing to offer in way of analysis or critique or logical argumentation.

    That commenter brings up (1) “Workers have no safety net or healthcare” (2) “Destitute and desperate people” (3) “Billionaires are using the public health crisis to funnel money to themselves, as per usual” (4) “Asking the public to mitigate the public health crisis” (5) “a working class friend” — as if this commenter and his/her clique/tribe/group are the only ones who are aware of these parts of the overall crisis and how this overall crisis affects common laborers. Frankly, it’s concern trolling, i.e. “See how much more concerned I am/we are compared to you and your ilk!!” It’s that same old, same old cognitive illusion of moral/ethical superiority. It distills to “I’m more empathetic and sympathetic than you are to the plight of (fill in the blank)”. Just to score rhetorical points. It’s pathetic.

    As major of a part this pandemic plays in this unfolding overall crisis of crises, the pandemic isn’t the entirety of what’s happening. Just like re-opening the economy in order to allow healthy people who want to return to work — and who have greater than a 99.995% effective survival rate if they contract a SARS-nCoV2 infection — won’t solve this crisis of crises. You and I and the rest of the skeptics of covid-phobia know that the billionaire class has an overt totalitarian agenda and that this billionaire class is using covid and economic disruptions in order to implement that agenda.

    It seems to me that our fellow leftists are small-minded and narrow-minded. It seems to me that they ONLY see the billionaire class has having one agenda — to make more money. That vision seems really stupid to me. When a group of people have more money than they can possibly spend, making more money isn’t the objective. The objective becomes “What can we accomplish with this amassed wealth and power?” They’re so very malignantly narcissistic, sociopathic and malevolent that they actually probably believe that they’re doing good instead of acting as tyrants always act. This quote was instructive.

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.
    – C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

    Regarding the lockdown and overt totalitarian social controls being implemented in the name of “public health”: your interlocutor (and plenty of other leftists who we’d think ought to have reasoned better) seem to have gotten sucked into tyranny exercised for the good of its victims. The tyrants are treating the masses as infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. Plenty of leftists are going along with the tyrants in this regard. Personally, I have little confidence/optimism that it’s going to get better with the leftists going along with tyranny. People will generally retrench rather than change their minds.

    (Sorry for the essay.)

  • Mensch59
  • Collectivist

    ” It seems to me that they ONLY see the billionaire class has having one agenda — to make more money. That vision seems really stupid to me. ”

    ALL of the most conscious and conscientious people, I’ve ever encountered, ANYWHERE, seem to see “that billionaire class[i.e. capitalists] having one agenda — to make more money “, except you.

    We also know that the, real, power$ that be are trying to get ‘a hold’, on this natural/biological/economic crisis in order to get back to ‘normal business as usual, in order to accumulate more money.

    Meanwhile, the infectations and deaths, from Covid, steadily rise, ebbing and flowing across the Earth. People are afraid. Losing money.Lost jobs. Businesses.

    Unsurprisingly, to many of us, except maybe to you, commercial media – 4th or 5th Estate(?) – is capitalizing on the fear and anxiety. No kidding.

    Most conscious and conscientious and empathetic people, however, want to live and stay healthy and keep their fellow humans alive and healthy FIRST AND FOREMOST . . .and are trying to figure out, at best, how to transform our societies to do that.

    We also know that “just “going back to work” (for those who have to do that), or the beach, church, coffee shop is no real solution. It may mean more sickness and death.

    And the, often, beautiful aspects☺ within natural-based contradictions:

    Before the “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Covid” kooks got their ‘liberty’ (to celebrate, outside, ‘Memorial’😣 Day) the skies were bluer than ever in the urban, mid-day ghost towns of America. Birds never sounded better.

    Fossil fuel futures were down. Stock Market too.

    Bottom line: Global CAPITALISM vs The BIOSPHERE

    Nonetheless, you’re out there, living in the woods (literally), promoting Alex Jones-like conspiracy theories online.

  • Nylene13

    Last night I went around the internet and it seems to be true, it is mentioned in some “reputable” sites- Bernie is forcing his delegates to sign Biden supporting pledges and to say nothing critical about the Democratic Party.

    I can only assume that Bernie thinks this is for the best, as his main goal now is to stop Trump from being re-elected.

    I don’t agree-I think Biden is about the same as Trump. Bernie may win some small progressive concessions, but it won’t be enough to make up for Bernie turning against his own people.

    I am pretty horrified at this point. As a Bernie Precinct Captain (twice) and with a son who was a Bernie Delegate to the Nevada 2016 State Dem. convention (and we all know what happened there) I am done with the Democratic Party.

  • Geez you don’t know what you are talking about, yet darn it – are going to say it anyway!! My my my.

    “our fellow leftists’… That is rich! Who knew that in addition to your other talents, that you were a comedian too? LOL

  • (hey – as posts from my “followed” folks no longer show up on my “latest comments”, I have to go to each person’s individual account to see what they are saying. When I go to yours, a year old convo from gravedigger shows up at the top where you were defending EH against my claims that she was a right winger!!! LOL. I upvoted a couple of comments there. Wonder if they will show up on your feed… Haha!!)

  • Collectivist

    Check your e-mail.

  • larrymotuz

    A suggestion. Some of my problems with Disqus comments vanished when I changed my password recently. That seemed to ‘reset’ it to capture the comments of people I followed. (I was clearly having problems resembling yours in that regard.)

    You’ve nothing to lose by trying this. If it works, great! If not, it hasn’t hurt.

  • Thanks for the hot tip, larry. Will give her a whirl and see what happens.

  • LOL!!!

  • larrymotuz

    Please let me know if it helped. Thanks.

  • No change. But thanks for the idea anyway. :-).

  • Hey, wait a minute! Seems like it may be working. Thanks larry. 🙂

  • LOL!!! Maybe 3 Hail Mary’s and 5 Rosaries and call it a day.

    Funny, old Mensch was there defending her politics too. That was before he flipped, then recently flopped back. The boomerang effect in action. Haha!

  • Mensch59

    From Principles of Communism (1847) by Friedrich Engels:
    “Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.”
    “The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labor only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence. This existence is assured only to the class as a whole.”
    “[T]he proletarian can free himself only by abolishing private property in general.”

    There are liberal leftists and illiberal leftists. All leftists (I presume) advocate for the abolition of private property. That advocacy can be — but doesn’t have to be — statist, authoritarian, and illiberal. Illiberal statism and illiberal authoritarianism was the prefered means to abolish private property historically. An argument can be made that not only did this approach fail, it failed miserably. Any student of illiberal authoritatian statist socialism realizes this, or ought to realize this. As a fellow leftist, I advocate for a better way to abolish private property. Illiberal authoritarian statists would rather murder their fellow leftists — beginning with character assassination — than consider a better way.

    I stand by what I believe I know to be politically & socially true — regardless of anything you have to say about me personally.

    As I wrote to @cocoluv9494:disqus, once you descended into character assassinating rhetoric, you made it clear that you have nothing to offer in way of analysis or critique or logical argumentation. This post to me ^^^ is only further evidence of that “nothing to offer”.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    No need for apology. It is a great essay. And I love the quote from C.S. Lewis.

    Writers, philosophers, musicians, and artists of all stripes often see the big picture more clearly than those entrenched in their own ideological sandbox.

  • CoCoLuv9491

    There. Is. No. Evidence. That. Supports. The. COVID. Hysteria.

    In fact, the evidence supports the contrary.

    But, nice try at gaslighting.

  • TUSAgain

    Most conscious and conscientious and empathetic people, however, want to live and stay healthy and keep their fellow humans alive and healthy FIRST AND FOREMOST . . .and are trying to figure out, at best, how to transform our societies to do that.

    Careful now…no telling how that will be interpreted. Funny cause it seems awfully clear to me…but what do I know?

    Thanks for this post, C.

  • dreamjoehill

    What is your plan for abolishing private property?

  • larrymotuz

    Great! Am glad the suggestion helped.

    It didn’t remove all my problems with Disqus … but it ‘fixed’ most of them!

  • larrymotuz

    Let’s not forget, however, that Karl Marx was a classical liberal economist in most respects but that this did not prevent him from calling a spade a spade when it came to capitalism.

    So called liberal economists of today have completely abandoned the classical tradition if, that is, they even know what it was about. It was certainly never about the imaginary, blackboard economics taught in most North American and British Universities nowadays with their imaginary ‘consumers’.

  • TUSAgain

    Best opening line ever….haha….well, at 11:45 on a Saturday?

  • thanks brother!

  • Mornonics, Mensch.

    I have probably read thousands of pages of your writing….. have spent untold hours indulging you and your apparent “needs’ that you continually expressed as you sought a way to navigate life as you encountered it, from someone who acted as a friend. I tried to show you the best, kindest and gentlest way possible that I could think of..

    And THIS ^^^ is the response to years of this kind of discussion??

    Yikes. Well, good luck with your life and figuring out how to develop meaningful relationships on your own.

    Take care.

  • Mensch59

    Nah. It’s only “moronics” to a leftist who refuses to see the illiberal.
    You’ve made your bed with the illiberal left. Now sleep in it.

  • Mensch59

    Well, good luck with your life and figuring out how to develop meaningful relationships on your own.

    Take care.

    Same to you. Now stop it with treating a third party like a football.

  • Mensch59

    Best opening line ever….haha….

    Interesting to see you egging on the “debate”.
    You’d think it’s a heinous crime to change one’s mind.

  • Mensch59

    Mensch was there defending [E. Hayes’] politics

    Yes, I was. One’s politics can change when a new crisis emerges — which crisis once again highlights the differences between left-libertarians and left-authoritarians.
    Frankly, the constant attacks on liberals by the posters in your clique have never set well with me.
    Neither have my observations that some leftists can be as illiberal as some right-wingers set well with me.
    This article suggested by @elizabeth_hayes:disqus — “Identity Politics Does Not Continue the Work of the Civil Rights Movements” by Helen Pluckrose and James A. Lindsay — helped me to understand that liberals are not the evil creatures we’re made out to be by the illiberal leftists is your clique.

    Universal Liberalism
    It is essential to understand that “liberal” does not indicate a place on the left of the political spectrum, as it is often used in the United States. Neither does it indicate a place on the right of the political spectrum, as it is often used in Australia. Rather, it is a philosophical and ethical position with a long history which focuses on individuality, liberty, and equal opportunity. In fact, it is found in decidedly left-wing political positions, decidedly right-wing ones, libertarian ones, and among the unaffiliated but broadly centrist. Therefore, universal liberalism is a widely held principle, and it is one which grew out of Enlightenment thought and the founding of secular, liberal democracies. As such, it birthed the civil rights movements.

    My politics has simply changed to distinguish the liberal left from the illiberal left and to distinguish between left-libertarians and left-statists.

    Now I realize that this attempt to explain my change of heart is a wasted effort with you and your clique. E. Hayes and I will still have our disagreements too. That’s why I prefer to stay banned from The Digger. I’m A-OK standing apart from the aspects of your politics I disagree with and from the aspects of her politics which I disagree with.

    I ought to realize at this moment though, prior to replying to you, that replying to you is like trying to reason with someone who is either unwilling or unable to discuss political disagreements in good faith.

  • TUSAgain

    Yup

  • Mensch59

    If your stance is “Yep. It’s a heinous crime to change one’s mind”, then that stance is a bigoted one.

  • TUSAgain

    Get a hobby. You are ridiculous.

  • Mensch59

    Nah. What’s “ridiculous” is to infer it’s not bigoted to tell someone that changing his mind is a heinous crime.
    If you don’t want to debate, don’t post sh¡t about people, i.e. how great a put down an “opening line” is.

  • You are wrapping yourself up in a lot of confused words that make little sense.

    Your politics or whatever “ideas” you have about whatever, don’t matter one whit until they harm others. And that seems to be what you overlook or don’g care about. Politics that harm others don’t “sit well with me”.

    Good faith is not a one way street. This post is not “good faith” – if it were, you would not couch it in passive aggressive digs like . “Now I realize that this attempt to explain my change of heart is a wasted effort with you and your clique.” “I ought to realize at this moment though, prior to replying to you, that replying to you is like trying to reason with someone who is either unwilling or unable to discuss political disagreements in good faith.”…

    My temper got the better of me last night. Best to walk away now.

  • Mensch59

    Illiberal behaviour doesn’t set well with me.
    That includes verbal abuse. It focuses on the behaviour of statists and authoritarians in thrall to those who exercise the power of concentrated wealth.

    If my words don’t make sense to you, perhaps you have no desire for them to make sense.

    My “digs” were not passive-aggressive. My words are matter of fact. I’m fully convinced that there are illiberal persons who behave illiberally who have zero desire to converse in good faith. These persons can be found on both the left and the right.

  • Weird extension of what bigotry means, eh?

  • All of that is a distraction from your libertarian politics that put other people at risk by promoting the propaganda of those who exercise the power of concentrated wealth.

  • Mensch59

    libertarian politics that put other people at risk

    Bullsh¡t. Breathing doesn’t put other people at risk.
    Spreading respiratory droplets filled with viruses by sneezing and coughing puts other people at risk. Not differentiating the symptomatic from the asymptomatic is YOU aligning with those who exercise the power of concentrated wealth and fascistic lockdown fanatics.

    Take your apologetics for totalitarianism somewhere else. You’re polluting my reading.

  • Not only did you not address what I said, but you went into the..
    “apologetics for totalitarianism”.. “?

  • TUSAgain

    Yes, walk away. He will just continue like a child in need of attention…saying anything trying to get a rise out of you when you have nothing to defend.

    Bad enough that he stands for nothing …he can say all he likes…he is capable of deep betrayals to friends. I bothered to reply but got exactly what I expected….it should not surprise you at all.

    I’m taking today off since I’m worn out and they say we’ll have some fun when it stops raining….whole damn week of that! I remain worried about my friend who was supposed to work today and it’s just too many days and really hard work. I think of him when someone tries to drag me into their own personal drama…puts it in perspective.

    Take care and hang in there. Laters…:)

  • Mensch59

    I call “bullshit” on your usual gaslighting trick “you did not address what I said”.

    Just because you cannot validate another person’s pov (without agreeing with that pov) and because you cannot give another pov a fair hearing (i.e. arguing in bad faith), I’m not making that my problem.

    The statists who are fascistic lockdown fanatics actually ARE apologists for totalitarianism and ARE in opposition to traditional libertarians — regardless of whether you have insight into this social phenomenon or not.

    Try this. Because you are obviously prejudiced against me, try giving a fair hearing to this third party’s pov and try looking for areas you can validate:

    “I’m talking about actual, bona fide fascism, or totalitarianism, if you want to get technical. The kind where governments declare a global “state of emergency” on account of a virus with a 0.2% to 0.6% lethality (and that causes mild, flu-like symptoms, or absolutely no symptoms whatsoever, in over 97% of those infected),
    locks everyone down inside their homes, suspends their constitutional rights, terrorizes them with propaganda, and unleashes uniformed goon squads on anyone who doesn’t comply with their despotic decrees.

    “I’m talking about the kind of totalitarianism where the police track you down with your smartphone data and then come to your house to personally harass you for attending a political protest, or attack you for challenging their illegitimate authority, and then charge you with “assault” for fighting back, and then get the media to publish a story accusing you of having “set up” the cops.

    “I’m talking about the kind of totalitarianism where the secret police are given carte blanche to monitor everyone’s Internet activity, and to scan you with their “surveillance helmets,” and dictate how close you can sit to your friends, and menace you with drones and robot dogs, and violently pry your kids out of your arms and arrest you if you dare to protest.

    “I’m talking about the kind of totalitarianism that psychologically tortures children with authoritarian loyalty rituals designed to condition them to live in fear, and respond to absurd Pavlovian stimuli, and that encourages the masses to turn off their brains and mechanically repeat propaganda slogans, like “wear a mask” and “flatten the curve,” and to report their neighbors to the police for having an “illegal” private party … and to otherwise reify the manufactured mass hysteria the authorities need to “justify” their totalitarianism.” ~ CJ Hopkins, “Brave New Normal (Part 2)”

    If you think this is simply rhetoric, look up the site and follow the hyperlinks.

  • yep. Very true about the provocation and then “surprise” when the provoked reaction comes.

    Very true about perspective when we try to navigate actual reality rather than cheapening it by intellectualizing and pontificating.

    Hope Willie will be ok – you too!

    We had a ton of rain this week too. Everything is lush and green here. First hot day. Oh boy, i am not ready for the heat!

    Take care

  • You start off badly and go downhill from there demanding that others do what you refuse to.

    No I am not “prejudiced against you”. There is no basis for discussion under the circumstances.

    Over and out.

  • TUSAgain

    I love your avatar and feel flattered that you did it…I was only half joking 🙂

    I hope you get a break in the rain soon! Glad you’re staying safe from the Psycho Killer washing maching. It’s good to hear it isn’t Burning Down the House too.

    ICWYDH.. Thanks for always having some humor…
    I know I was never cut out for posting on the daily…never have to explain that to me!
    Gosh, I think that tune was very popular when I was just 13…one of the last I recall playing on my old AM radio. It won’t surprise you any that I used to sit in a tree listening to it. Was perched in that tree the first time I heard Bob Dylan…now there was someone completely different…ah memories.

    Thanks 8. I’m resting today having blown my wrist from too much typing yesterday. Stay cool and take care. You bet I will look for you..always 🙂

  • Mensch59

    Here’s some good news. The CDC estimates that the infection fatality rate for Covid-19 may be as low as twice the rate of seasonal flu. Bad enough, but
    not close to the most dire of doomsday predictions. See “CDC: Coronavirus fatality rate could be as low as 0.26%” at Just the News dot com if interested.
    I’m glad that the other crap is dismissed as “over and out”. A second bit of good news — personally.

  • Collectivist

    “Bad enough that he stands for nothing …he can say all he likes”

  • TUSAgain

    Thanks for the links…and they were strange for sure.

    I grew up in NYC and most of my teens were spent in the West Village at the same iconic coffee houses written about.. Never heard very much about Phil Ochs other than him having mental problems. He was gone long before computers and the age of information arrived. These were interesting just the same…thanks again 🙂

  • Wow… That was a helluva life!!

  • dreamjoehill

    Ultimately, Ochs is an enigma.

  • dreamjoehill

    Ochs was the voice of the anti-Vietnam war protests. He also testified for the defense at the Chicago 8 trial. This is why his shadowy CIA connections are very weird.

    Ochs died in 1976, prior to the internet but definitely not prior to computers.

  • TUSAgain

    Yes. I wondered when I heard that Phil Ochs was bipolar if it was true or not. Won’t be the first time that they planted information that was untrue on people opposed to the war.

    Very strange and I would like to believe that he wasn’t struggling with mental illness. Ultimately, I have no idea.

  • zak1

    This is a very interesting question

    I think there is some curious history to unearth here

    As I recall it was Frank Lawrence who made this connection some decades ago – his father, Francis Lawrence, had been a major figure in the evangelical movement, instrumental in Operation Rescue

    When Frank very publicly rejected his pedigree and his father’s ideology, I recall him pointing out how the discourse of Operation Rescue was channeled during the Obama years to mobilize right wing opposition to the idea of public healthcare in general

    And all this dovetailed with the right wing devolution narrative that had taken shape since the Reagan years – the idea that government in itself is bad, and less of it was better – much of this was fed by corporate sponsorship, as a massive PR effort to turn the population against the government, and in turn weaken the chances of the public using its government as an instrument against corporate power

    It’s a frightening work of corporate propaganda – tapping into very real and legitimate fears of totalitarianism, but focusing only on public institutions, while carefully avoiding any talk of private power and the increasing privatization of government functions –

    So the spectre of government doctors “killing babies” evolved into supposed “death panels” who would use government healthcare to secretly euthanize the infirm and unfit among us

    Instead of regarding public government as something belonging to the public, an instrument to be harnessed to address public needs and aspirations, the right wing of corporate media encouraged its demographic to see “government” as a kind of absolute foe, an existential threat

    Instead of the warm family doctor, we have instead the image of the UFO that will kidnap us in the night and subject us to horrific “probing” experiments

    What’s so obscene about this is the way healthcare, that most nurturing and intimate of public functions, was turned upside down in people’s minds to fuel their worst fears of helplessness and violation

    What’s so brilliant about your own contribution is your emphasis on community management of healthcare – this is a powerful reassurance that directly addresses this basic fear people have regarding their personal autonomy