Above photo: The Yulara, by Youssef Sammour.
The following is a transcript of a 9/24/2025 WPFW 89.3 “What’s At Stake” interview by Ari Gutman with Global Samud Flotilla participant Youssef Sammour and Salma Shawa, a Palestinian content creator from Gaza.
This week, nearly two years after the Al Aqsa flood, which marks a growing escalation of the US Zionist genocide of Palestinians. Multiple Anglo-European states, including the UK, France and Canada, declared their recognition of the State of Palestine, joining the global majority of more than 144 states who had already done so. A statement put out by UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer this past Sunday reads: “in the face of the growing horror in the Middle East, we are acting to keep alive the possibility of peace and of a two state solution.”
Despite his words, the UK continues to collaborate with the Zionist regime by frequently flying spy planes over Gaza, directly collaborating with the occupation forces. The UK, alongside the other European states who are now attempting to force the so-called two state solution back into headlines after decades of providing military, economic and diplomatic cover to the Zionist regime’s theft of Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian land were a main focal point of this week’s UN General Assembly, during which multiple states and leaders, primarily from the Global South, publicly condemned the Zionist regime for its genocide of Palestinians.
A week prior, the United States once again vetoed a UN resolution demanding an immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire in the Gaza Strip. It was the only state to do so.
Despite the hypocrisy and complicity of Western leaders, millions of people around the world have not stopped taking action and using their voices to resist what many are calling the first ever livestreamed genocide.
Salma Shawa, a Palestinian content creator born and raised in Gaza, has been helping her more than 300,000 followers to think past the headlines and the obfuscation of mainstream narratives. Youssef Sammour, a Palestinian living in New Zealand, is a current participant in the Global Sumud Flotilla, a coalition of everyday people, organizers, humanitarians, doctors, artists, clergy, lawyers and seafarers who believe in human dignity and have decided to take nonviolent action. He and dozens of ships are currently enroute to Gaza carrying humanitarian supplies, steadfast in their goal to break the genocidal siege.
Youssef and Salma, thank you for joining us today.
Youssef: Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Ari: Youssef, I’d like to start with you. You are currently on board a ship headed to Gaza. I know there have been some urgent updates in the past 12 hours. Could you tell us what we need to know and how you and your crewmates are doing?
Youssef: Hi. We’re all doing fine. Given what’s happened in the past 12 hours, we are seven people on board a 42-foot sailing yacht called Yulara. And if you go to the Global Sumud Flotilla website, there’s a live tracker of all of our ships that’s being updated in real time so you can keep track of how we’re doing and how we’re progressing. In the past 12 hours, as we were making our way in formation, several ships were attacked by drones.
It was a bit of a panic state. The Yulara itself was attacked, there were 14 attacks in total, and three of them were chemical attacks. A sulfuric acid kind of attack that smelled really horrible like rotten eggs if you remember that from chemistry class in high school.
The 11 other attacks were physical explosions that were incredibly loud. Four vessels have undertaken significant damage and we’re currently accessing the damage itself. The good news is nobody was seriously injured onboard any of the ships and we are all full steam ahead.
Some breaking news as the Italian Navy has sent a ship, an hour ago, has stated that they will send a ship to, kind of protect us on our way, past European waters. I’m not sure how far they are from us, but that’s a huge breakthrough where European countries have an actual military vessel to accompany us which has never happened and this is my third flotilla. So this is great news, and we’re all doing fine.
Ari: And I think, you know, it speaks to the Italian people really organizing a general strike and militant action to push their government to support the flotilla in this way. So I also want to recognize the organizing taking place on the ground.
This is the largest maritime mission ever attempted. And we know that there are people in Gaza who are waiting for Yousef and his crewmates to arrive.
Salma, could you tell us what you are hearing from people in Gaza about the current situation on the ground? What are people in need of, and why do you think the occupation is taking such criminal and violent action to prevent humanitarian aid from reaching them?
Salma: Yeah, I mean, the situation is pretty tough right now because people are being forced to flee for, I don’t know, the hundredth time from the north of Gaza to the south, and people really have nowhere to go because Israel is flattening all the very big residential towers in Gaza.
And people are struggling to even find tents to stay and so it’s really, really tough right now with housing especially and even transportation. Like, I have lots of friends and family who are struggling to even get from the north to the south because they simply have no vehicle to get transported. And since there is no gas, there’s no buses or anything like that.
It’s really, really hard to find transportation. And the bombardments are, of course, continuing. Just the other day, Israel bombed a medical relief building and more than 60 people got killed. And that coincided with the same time that the European states were recognizing Palestine as a state. So there’s a lot of, I just feel that the international community is so detached from the reality on the ground with, you know, the statements they’re making, their acts of recognition and the symbolism behind it is not really translating into anything material on the ground to stop the genocide.
And I think, you know, to your question about why is Israel acting with this much impunity? I mean, they’ve always acted with this much impunity. It’s just to a different degree right now, and they keep doing more. And more and more and killing more people, displacing more people. And I think their goal is very clear from the beginning, which is displacing and killing as many Palestinians as possible in an attempt to possibly annex Gaza.
And that’s what we’re seeing. I mean, people are having to leave their ancestral homeland. And, and the implication of that is Palestinian families are being ripped apart and torn into pieces. So, you know, you look at a Palestinian family right now from Gaza and let’s say a family has six members. Some of them are killed. Maybe they’re under the rubble but have not been found yet.
Some of them evacuated to Egypt when the rough border was open. Some of them are in the south, some are in the north, some are seeking asylum in the US or Canada or Europe. Israel has destroyed the social fabric of a Gazan family unit, and it’s the most devastating thing to have happened to Palestinians to be honest.
Ari: And to your point about the failure of the international, you know, community to, to meet this moment. You know, I’m thinking about why something like the Sumud Flotilla had to be formed. Youssef, could you talk about the history of previous missions to break the siege on Gaza? And if you could both talk a bit about the siege and how it has impacted life in Gaza, you just, you know, spoke to this Salma but how it has impacted life in Gaza, not only in the last two years, but prior.
Youssef: Yes. The flotilla started in 2008 under the Ship to Gaza Movement which was then superseded by that Freedom Flotilla Coalition in 2010. In 2010, the Mavi Marmara, which was a Turkish vessel carrying hundreds of people, was boarded illegally in international waters by the Israeli occupation with helicopters, Zodiacs, and boats. Ten people were murdered by the army. There were little repercussions again, like Salma said, with total impunity.
And ever since then there’s been more media attention and more eyes on these flotillas. And every year or two, when they can save up enough money through donations and grassroots events to raise the funds to purchase vessels and boats, they attempt to break the siege again.
And the quotes or kind of phrase that we’re all using that we’ve been using in the past and that we’re using now is when the governments fail, we sail – because we shouldn’t be doing this. This is not normal. We civilians and artists and doctors and nurses and sailors should not be taking it upon themselves to risk their lives due to an occupation and an apartheid racist supremacist regime. This should be done by the, by all the peacekeeping entities that have been created since World War two, specifically to stop these things from happening again, and the silence and the powerlessness of all of these entities and this specific case is eye opening and has opened the eyes of so many people specifically since October 7th. And this is why this movement this year has been so massive, because everybody now knows what’s happening, and everybody wants to be part of it.
And the mobilization that’s happened in the past four months, and I’ve been part of the movement since the beginning with its inception in June, has been incredible. I mean, in reality, this should have happened 78 years ago, right? And it’s happening now. Better late than never. And hopefully it’s not too late to actually help the people in Palestine.
Again, I want to reiterate, just to support Salma’s speech just now, this is not about us. This is not about any of us except the Palestinians in Gaza. And we’re all doing this because we want to help those people. They can help themselves, but the world is not doing anything about it. The systems that are in place to stop these, these things from happening, there’s not doing anything about it.
So we need to do everything we can, everything in our power. And me as a sailor, and as a Palestinian person, it’s my duty to be on this ship. It’s my duty to keep doing this. And everyone else who is not Palestinian feels the same as well. It’s not about religion or race or anything other than basic humanity. It’s basic decency. The basic black and white of what’s right. And what’s wrong, who the bullies are and who the people are being bullied on. And this is why we’re here.
Ari: Salma, you spoke briefly about how the international community is now deciding, or rather not the international community, but primarily Western states are now deciding to recognize a Palestinian state as if this is some sort of Band-Aid over the last two years of, you know, destroying, as you mentioned, the social fabric of the Palestinian family. What do they mean by a Palestinian state? And do you think this will have any impact on the people of Gaza right now?
Salma: I mean, that’s I think the question we all have, what do they mean by a Palestinian state when you’re effectively killing Palestinians to this very moment? I mean, one of the rules of statehood is that you need a population. If you’re exterminating that population, then where is the state? And then also when you think of any state a big part of it is being able to enter into relations like trade relations with other states and countries. So how is that possible when on the one hand, the West Bank is occupied, there is, you know, military occupation with the checkpoints, restrictions on movement on trade.
And in Gaza, you have a genocide where there aren’t even homes left, so let alone enter into trade when we don’t have control over our seas. So the recognition, does it really make sense? I mean, I’m trying to understand what they mean by it at this time when what we really need, what people in Gaza need is an end to the genocide and an end to the blockade. Those are the things that we have been demanding for the past two years, and not the symbolism of recognizing a state that they have really decimated the population of.
I also want to mention that, you know, for Palestinians, the way that we look at Palestine is more connected to the idea of land. Like we conceptualize Palestine as a land, not as just a state with drawn up borders by Western powers. And an essential part of our land is the farmer, the trees, and nature. That is what Palestine is to us. And I think that’s what land means to many indigenous people around the world, whether it’s, you know, Native Americans, that is their idea of land. It’s not just the borders that get drawn up.
Right now, our land is being destroyed. We don’t have that land. Our olive trees are bulldozed, our farmers are unable to farm and provide sustenance for the Palestinian population. So, the recognition is not guaranteeing this land for us. So at least for me, it doesn’t mean anything. And if it’s not ending the genocide, then I just see it as a way for Western powers to actually reward Israel and and to show us that you know what? We’re not decolonizing Palestine, and we’re not really acknowledging that this is colonialism.
But instead we’re going to keep arming Israel. We’re going to keep funding it. We’re going to keep sending our dollars or pounds or whatever currency these Western powers have to Israel while they bombard you. But then we’re going to give you this crap of a recognition.
Ari: And to your point, you know, I always find it so interesting when Western leaders say, well, if we give the Palestinians a state, right, which is already to begin with, if we give the Palestinians a state as if it’s the Western leaders who are supposed to bestow people around the world statehood, it’s rewarding the Palestinian resistance.
But the same question has never posed to the Zionists of, you know, you are conducting a genocide and yet we will continue to reward you with money, resources, diplomatic cover, you know, everything they need. I just find the double standard to be so disturbing and racist, quite frankly.
Youssef, you are just a normal person, like you said, taking on what should really be the responsibility of the UN. I think there are millions of people out there wondering what they can do to support the people of Palestine at this moment. What would you say to those people?
Youssef: Yeah. There’s a million things you can do, like what we’re doing now. This is one of the many dozens of things that can be done, attending rallies and protests, mobilizing in your home countries if you live in a democracy, quote unquote, where you can talk to your local members of parliament, local mayors, local government officials to push the narrative that what’s happening needs to stop.
You get them to say the word genocide, the G word that nobody wants to mention after two years, which is utterly ridiculous. And to impact change in any way that you can, any skill that you have, any tool that you have, video editing, social media, if you’re a lawyer or if you’re a medical professional. This whole thing needs all of us because nobody else is doing anything about it. And we need to do something about it.
The other thing that I would mention is that the UN, a year ago issued an order for Israel to withdraw to its previous borders and the West Bank. How can you have a two state solution? How can you recognize Palestine as a state when there is no state left in the West Bank, when the only Palestinian territories that are left are scattered small areas that are controlled by checkpoints with no freedom of movement?
People there are living under military law. There is no state that can be declared under the current situation. They had 12 months to withdraw. And instead of what’s going on, a couple of months ago, they seized another 30,000 hectares, almost as a ‘here’s what we think about this kind of response’. So Gaza and the genocide aside, which is impossible to say really to put it aside, but if you just consider what’s happening in the West Bank, it’s impossible to have a two state solution that’s physically impossible. There is no way, unless they withdraw to their previous agreed borders. 1967 borders.
That aside, you can’t even have a two state solution with a Zionist murderous regime. There’s a ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu and his members of prominence. How do you expect anyone to live side by side with such an entity? It’s completely implausible. I mean, all these people, all these countries that are declaring a Palestinian state, they’re just trying to save face and they’re just trying to go with the tide that is turning drastically. They’re trying to save themselves from exposing themselves for what they’ve been complicit in for so long.
So I would say mobilize and do whatever you can with the tools that you have to contribute to making this change happen faster, because it is happening. We all know this.
Ari: Thank you so much, Youssef. And just before we close, I would like to ask you Salma if you have anything else you’d like to add.
Salma: Yeah. I mean, I agree with what Youssef has said, and I think we just need urgent action and I really urge people to do what they can with what they have as much as possible.
We can all contribute, even if it’s small or big, especially if you’re living in Western countries. So, you know, protests, boycott, the BDS movement is growing and it’s seeing some wins and of course support the Sumud Flotilla. Thank you so much for this.
Ari: Thank you so much for coming on to speak about what activists around the world are doing to support the people of Palestine.
